# How many animal lives is one human life worth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662 "2009-04-19T22:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/41 "2009-04-20T13:16:49Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Which brings me to the thread question. Restricting yourself to relatively intelligent wild mammals-- bears, dolphins, wolves, elephants, and the like – and to situations in which a perrson has deliberately and stupidly put hirself in danger, how many non-human lives is too many to sacrifice for one human life? My reading of the linked article indicates the woman was attempting suicide by polar bear. All the Darwin references and cracks about her lack of intelligence completely miss the point of what she was trying to do. She knew the animal was dangerous. That was the point of climbing in with it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/42 "2009-04-20T13:29:48Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It’s not the zoo’s responsibility to psychoanalyse their visitors. > > If a person is nutty enough to want to feed the animals early, why should an animal suffer? > > I’d rather have one less fuckwit on the planet than one less polar bear. It is, however, the zoo’s responsibility to restrict access to potentially dangerous animals. They should assume that there are children, idiots, psychologically imbalanced people, suicidals and other people who would be interested in getting inappropriately close to the lions, tigers and bears. Fortunately the world does not work according to your Darwin Award sense of justice. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/43 "2009-04-20T13:36:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It is, however, the zoo’s responsibility to restrict access to potentially dangerous animals. They should assume that there are children, idiots, psychologically imbalanced people, suicidals and other people who would be interested in getting inappropriately close to the lions, tigers and bears. > > Fortunately the world does not work according to your Darwin Award sense of justice. A zoo should be entitled to assume its customers aren’t suicidal, and it should not have to set its security measures with those people in mind. People who get eaten by polar bears in zoos are the equivalent of pigeons who get run over. And I’d say the same about my own brother if he was fucked up enough to do something like that. Just because it’s your own kin shouldn’t make the animal more guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/44 "2009-04-20T14:10:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What? Perhaps you mean all the animals that are laterally equivalent on the food chain? What about predators? You make no sense. All kinds of creatures eat all kinds of creatures _all the time_…this isn’t some kind of evolutionary synchronized swimming we’re talking about here. The whooshing sound you hear is neither Superman flying overhead nor Xena hurling her chakrum. ETA: Upon further review, I retract my mockery of **FoisGrasisEvil**. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/45 "2009-04-20T14:13:53Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > Chimpanzees actually practice a primitive form of warfare. Patrols of young, male chimps will circle the perimeter of their territory, and kill chimps from another pack if they can catch them alone in the border area. Having done so, they’ll patrol that border more aggressively, hoping to catch more stragglers, occasionally penetrating the other pack’s territory to do so. If they’re successful a few more times, they’ll mount larger, more aggressive patrols that will take on larger groups of enemy chimps, until they mount a full scale invasion of the core the other pack’s territory. They’ll kill the males and take the females. [Gwynne Dyer, War]. You forgot “kill and sometimes eat the infants.” ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/46 "2009-04-20T14:54:30Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Individual vs. species, the human should be sacrificed to preserve the animal species. Of your hierarchy, this is the only one I’m not so sure about. If the animal species has absolutely no utility to humans, now or in the future, then I say the individual human should be saved. And that is reflected in my original balancing of scales equation. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/47 "2009-04-20T15:09:33Z")
> [@dgrdfd](#): > > Animals kill just for the fun of it all the time. Ever seen a cat play with a mouse for minutes before finally finishing it off? Then it won’t even bother to eat it. They do it for sport. It’s a totally different circumstance with a domestic kitty who is already well fed off kitty food from its human servant. Killing the mouse for fun was just the kitty exercising the hunting nature you don’t see when it sleeps next to a sunny window. Wild animals rarely have the luxury of not eating what they kill. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/48 "2009-04-20T15:52:07Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Hypothetical situation: > > You have to choose if a random human or a random polar bear will be shot and killed. Your choice will have no legal or other ramifications. Would you choose the human to be killed because polar bears are few in number compared to what they once were? I would choose the polar bear every time. Humans are “my team” as other people have said and I don’t really want anyone to die. Even if the person was a convicted murderer I would still most likely choose the polar bear. But let’s not get too carried away with the hypotheticals, OK? (what if your child was trapped in a burning car with a polar bear…) That said, if some moron, sorry, I mean ignorant individual, purposely wanders into a group of polar bears I would rather not kill polar bears during the rescue even if it lessens the chance that the rescue will be successful. If I had to make the choice, I would shoot the polar bears but I would really try to avoid it if at all possible. > [@panache45](#): > > And I have never understood why people don’t. We are all going to die and I sincerely think that every human death is a terrible tragedy. All people, even murderers and rapists, were once somebodies child and were filled with potential. Even so we are animals; we die. It is a natural consequence of our existence and their is nothing sacred about our lives. I am disgusted with the effort and wealth we put into the last days of our lives trying to postpone the inevitable. I once saw a statistic (can’t seem to find anything right now but my Google-fu feels weak) that ~80% of all the money spent on health care in the US is spent on the last month of life trying to prolong it. My mother, a retired R.N. that worked in a medical intensive care unit, regaled me with stories of families desperate to keep a family member alive. They would spend all their money and even go deeply into debt when the doctors have made it clear that even if they survive the week, they will not survive the year or even regain consciousness. People like Terry Schiavo’s parents have it all wrong IMHO, we need to embrace life while we have it, and let it go when it is time… These are the type of people that I mean when I make statements about the sacredness of human life… > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > There are two issues here. One of them is saving the human’s life, and the other is putting the animal down because it tasted blood… If the animal is in captivity it should be possible to control it well enough that it is not a threat. I would keep the animal alive, if only to preserve its genetic stock especially for a threatened species. If the species is flourishing (pretty rare these days) I would probably put it down. > [@Isamu](#): > > Of your hierarchy, this is the only one I’m not so sure about. If the animal species has absolutely no utility to humans, now or in the future, then I say the individual human should be saved. And that is reflected in my original balancing of scales equation. I completely disagree with you. A species can have value in and of itself even if it not of utility to humans, even indirectly. Hell, whooping cranes, african elephants, and timber wolves don’t have much utility when it comes to humans, would you wipe them out to save a life? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/49 "2009-04-20T16:01:27Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I completely disagree with you. A species can have value in and of itself even if it not of utility to humans, even indirectly. Hell, whooping cranes, african elephants, and timber wolves don’t have much utility when it comes to humans, would you wipe them out to save a life? Sure. If it could be proved that they don’t have any utility. But even enjoyment of the visual spectacle of the animals you described is of marginal benefit to some people. So we go back to the scale. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/50 "2009-04-20T16:21:36Z")
> [@ivan astikov](#): > > A zoo should be entitled to assume its customers aren’t suicidal, and it should not have to set its security measures with those people in mind. > > People who get eaten by polar bears in zoos are the equivalent of pigeons who get run over. The zoo should have a reasonable level of security in place to prevent people from entering animal habitats and they should have some sort of contingency in place in case someone finds themselves trapped in a polar bear enclosure regardless of the circumstances. Ideally that contingency won’t involve shooting the animal. People who get eaten by polar bears in zoos (assuming they weren’t a careless zoo employee) are most likely mentally ill. Are you advocating we should feed the mentally ill to polar bears? > [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I would choose the polar bear every time. Humans are “my team” as other people have said and I don’t really want anyone to die. Even if the person was a convicted murderer I would still most likely choose the polar bear. But let’s not get too carried away with the hypotheticals, OK? (what if your child was trapped in a burning car with a polar bear…) What if the polar bear was destined to kill the next Hitler (posibly with a 1920s Style Death Ray on an airplane while it’s waiting to depart from it’s treadmill)?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/51 "2009-04-20T16:26:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You may already be aware of the story of [Mandy K](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/04/woman-mauled-by-polar-bear-after-jumping-into-enclosure-at-the-berlin-zoo.html), a 32-year-old woman mauled by a polar bear in a Berlin after climbing into the bear’s enclosure. I open this thread not to call Mandy an idiot, as that is obvious, but because of this: > > If I were a zoo worker, I think I would have been … vexed, shall we say, at the thought of having to kill a bear for behaving perfectly naturally in the presence of such a Darwin award winner. At least that’s my first impulse; my second is to remember, with a tingue of regret, that humanity is my team and I am obliged assist even the terminally stupid. > > Which brings me to the thread question. Restricting yourself to relatively intelligent wild mammals-- bears, dolphins, wolves, elephants, and the like – and to situations in which a perrson has deliberately and stupidly put hirself in danger, how many non-human lives is too many to sacrifice for one human life? I don’t think there is an animal human equivalency question here. If there was there would be deeper consequences than this case - we would need to rethink eating animals for food, putting them in zoos, etc. After all, we wouldn’t do that to humans. I think of this situation in terms of “infrastructure” cost. The zoo has to kill one of its exhibits, at no doubt a significant cost. At what cost should they just let the woman die, given her actions are unquestionably stupid? To me this has nothing to do with animals. I would have the same question if the lady had scaled fences with huge warning signs on them and entered a dangerous industrial area, and for some reason the only way to save her was to destroy the expensive equipment. As to the answer, well I put an extremely high premium on human life, so it is almost certain in these cases that the woman would be saved. That said, there are more extreme ridiculous scenarios where it is not clear: what if you had to destroy an entire city block? In fact, there are less ridiculous extreme examples: we continue to drive and fly, despite the certainty that someone will be killed by this in the future (and not even negligent people either, it is certain that a completely responsible person will be killed in the future). One thing is extremely clear to me, whether it involves the destruction of a bear or of industrial equipment: this woman is 100% responsible for any damages, and should be sued up until the company is made whole. ---
**Author:** ![geezermom67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@geezermom67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geezermom67)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/52 "2009-04-20T18:08:17Z")
I come from an outlier perspective, being a vegan. That being said, I see a difference between this situation and other animal vs. human cases. For instance, if I see a stray dog attacking a child, I will do what I can to protect the child, even if it means harming or killing the dog. If I witness a horse go down while carrying a rider, I will first check on the condition of the rider before looking after the horse. If I knew that there was a dangerous dog lose in a residential area I would likely call the animal control group even if it might mean the dogs demise. The case of a person getting into an enclosure at a zoo is different though. We know that bears, etc. are dangerous, and most of us know to stay clear of them when they are in their natural habitats. We do try to bring them into our cities in zoos, but then we erect all kinds of barriers to prevent them from coming into contact with them. If someone climbs fences to get in there with a bear, and then gets attacked, I neither blame the bear nor see it as some big threat. I would think that you should still try and rescue the person, without harming the bear if possible, but do not believe that the bear would need to be put down as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/53 "2009-04-20T18:13:58Z")
By the way: **mutantmoose** , are you ever going to explain how non-human, non-language-using animls are “noble” and “honorable”? Your use of the second term is what really puzzles me. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/54 "2009-04-20T18:24:05Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > It’s a totally different circumstance with a domestic kitty who is already well fed off kitty food from its human servant. Killing the mouse for fun was just the kitty exercising the hunting nature you don’t see when it sleeps next to a sunny window. Wild animals rarely have the luxury of not eating what they kill. But they also very clearly enjoy it. Which does not make them monsters - it makes them animals. They are incapable of moral judgement. Edit: Let me also comment on veganism/some vegetarianism. Without any rancor, I cannot agree with vegans on any moral basis for animal rights. Just as I don’t blame or hate the animal which might kill me, so do I respect and do not despise the animal which becomes my dinner. If animals have any rights, it is solely because we choose to give and enforce those rights: they are incapable of earning or deserving them, much less understanding them. Likewise, I do not consider plants any less worthy, or for that matter, bacteria. Whether they have a brain or not matter only insofar as to how quickly I choose to kill my prey, and that is because I am merciful, not that my prey has right to expect it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/55 "2009-04-20T18:30:51Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > By the way: > > **mutantmoose** , are you ever going to explain how non-human, non-language-using animls are “noble” and “honorable”? > > Your use of the second term is what really puzzles me. My guess is he means that animals in general haven’t evolved the art of deceit quite as well as humans yet, and are therefore more ‘honorable’ in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/56 "2009-04-20T18:52:14Z")
I suppose if someone had the full psychological profile of the person entering the cage you could make a determineation, but the presumption should be to protect the person no matter how stupid they turn out to be. For all we know _ex ante_ this person may have a medical condition that caused her to go in the cage. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/57 "2009-04-21T02:05:45Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I suppose if someone had the full psychological profile of the person entering the cage you could make a determineation, but the presumption should be to protect the person no matter how stupid they turn out to be. For all we know _ex ante_ this person may have a medical condition that caused her to go in the cage. I wholeheartedly concur with **Gangster Octopus**. I’d just add these thoughts: Human lives are far more sacred than those of animals. I disagree with those who are anthropomorphizing bears as being “noble” or “gentle”; these are wild animals that are all brainstem and would kill you and your loved ones if the opportunity presented itself. ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/58 "2009-04-21T02:13:21Z")
A human life is worth less than an animal’s when that species is critically endangered and near extinction. I would gladly kill a whaler that was about to harpoon the last pregnant blue whale. The planet is not wanting of homo sapiens, but each species lost is really a cosmic tragedy that can’t be gotten back. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/59 "2009-04-21T02:35:43Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I would choose the polar bear every time. Humans are “my team” as other people have said and I don’t really want anyone to die. Even if the person was a convicted murderer I would still most likely choose the polar bear. The reason I asked is because it certainly seemed like you would choose to shoot the human based on what I quoted you saying: > [@](#): > > That said, I don’t think there is anything special about a single human being while creatures like polar bears are relatively rare and may be getting rarer. We should do what we can to protect the polar bears life if at all possible, even in cases where a Darwin Award winner wannabe decides to give the bears a coke… Heartless, maybe; but I have never understood why people think human life is sacred. I’m not sure what above is heartless about all you said about humans not being special and doing all we can to protect the bear if you’d choose to kill the bear. > [@](#): > > But let’s not get too carried away with the hypotheticals, OK? I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/60 "2009-04-21T10:21:58Z")
> [@Brandus](#): > > A human life is worth less than an animal’s when that species is critically endangered and near extinction. I would gladly kill a whaler that was about to harpoon the last pregnant blue whale. The planet is not wanting of homo sapiens, but each species lost is really a cosmic tragedy that can’t be gotten back. I don’t see it that way at all. Extinction is a part of the great circle of life. And if we’re ever down to the last pregnant whale - well it’s already too late for them, no sense adding to the carnage is there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662.md?page=4)