# How many Captain America-type super-soldiers would it haven taken to have a sizable effect on D-Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378 "2015-04-23T19:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/1 "2015-04-23T19:11:48Z")
Suggested because I saw a few minutes of the first Captain America movie on FX last night. When it’s clear that Steve Rogers is not going to simply be the first person to get the super-soldier treatment, but the only one, the Tommy Lee Jones character immediately loses interest in the project, saying he needs an army, not one man. So let’s make some assumptions. First, the super-soldier treatment is the only bit of magic tech available, and only the US has it. Second, that it’s expensive and difficult enough that there’s no question of giving it to every soldier; a maximum of 10,000 such supreme physical specimens can be created, and that’s going to be a major budgetary investment. Third, that production of said supers started around, oh, early 1943, and the full number was available and trained by, say, April 1944. How many super-soldiers do you think it would take to make a noticeable difference in D-Day? In European campaign overall? In the Pacific campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/2 "2015-04-23T19:22:27Z")
Are they all going to have vibranium-alloy shields? I’d say Cap and the other Caplets would be wasted charging machine gun nests. They have superior strength, speed, agility and resilience, I’m not sure that running through sand at machine gun nests is the best use of a 6 million dollar soldier\*. I’d say you drop them behind enemy lines, and have them kill Nazis on the sly. Can you imagine the disruption of 1000 Caps parkouring around Berlin throwing Nazis off of rooftops. It stirs the heart. \*1943 dollars ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/3 "2015-04-23T19:26:41Z")
One Captain America cut his way through the Jerries/Hydra pretty well on his own in the first movie. Sure he had some help from some of the regular dog faces but he’s the one who also rescued everyone by himself from the Hydra lab. One super soldier on D-Day (with an indestructible shield, I assume) would have made a huge difference. Get a handful and now you’re cookin’ with gas. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/4 "2015-04-23T19:26:48Z")
10,000? That’s a drop in the bucket. You’d need 10 times that number for them to make a difference as a line unit. Commando ops, on the other hand, would be right up their alley. The big decision is do you keep them all together or parcel them out among regular units? eta: You can’t assume shields. Cap’s signature weapon is a once-off. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/5 "2015-04-23T19:29:57Z")
IIRC, Captain America is basically just a guy pushing the limits of human performance in pretty much every capacity, but isn’t invulnerable and can get shot dead just like any other man. So you could assume that he’s got extraordinary vision, speed, hearing, stamina, etc… That said, how much more effective would say… a company of Captain America super-soldiers be than a regular infantry company if they’re all equipped the same way? And more importantly, is there ANY kind of indication that they were selected for mental toughness before the procedure, and highly trained at some point? The reason I’m asking is because for things like the Rangers at Pointe du Hoc, the tenacity, toughness and training was of far greater importance than mere physical superiority would have been; I’d take Rudder’s force of Rangers over the same number of super-soldiers who hadn’t undergone the Ranger selection and training process. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/6 "2015-04-23T19:37:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Are they all going to have vibranium-alloy shields? Nope. The OP says that the only bit of super-tech is the super-soldier process, which is distinct from the shields. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/7 "2015-04-23T19:41:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 10,000? That’s a drop in the bucket. You’d need 10 times that number for them to make a difference as a line unit. Commando ops, on the other hand, would be right up their alley. 10,000 is about the size of a combat division (on the low end). And that includes all the support personnel. 10,000 front line combat troops is not a drop in the bucket. That is a couple of divisions worth of infantry. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/8 "2015-04-23T19:46:29Z")
Don’t forget that being at “peak human condition” isn’t just jumping over tank traps to kick krauts with you size 11 red buccaneer boots, that’s also going to have a positive effect on sniping, making snap decisions in the heat of battle, and most importantly in tense situations when adrenaline might make a normal Joe freeze or think about running away. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/9 "2015-04-23T19:49:22Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Don’t forget that being at “peak human condition” isn’t just jumping over tank traps to kick krauts with you size 11 red buccaneer boots, that’s also going to have a positive effect on sniping, making snap decisions in the heat of battle, and most importantly in tense situations when adrenaline might make a normal Joe freeze or think about running away. With the exception of the hand-eye coordination for sniping, everything else is more mental than physical- decision making, reactions to acute stress, etc… There isn’t any indication that I’m aware of that Steve Rogers suddenly became better under fire or more fearless as a result of the super-soldier process. That’s why I pointed out upthread that I’d rather have Rangers than a company of super-soldiers if the super-soldiers weren’t specially trained and selected. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/10 "2015-04-23T20:07:32Z")
I would argue that his brain is also working at peak physical condition. Snap decisions come quicker, reactions are quicker, calculating ranges and distances would be easier, etc. etc. Of course add in the post-augmentation training he got which would be something akin to Ranger training. Cap is one bad mother. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/11 "2015-04-23T20:10:47Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Cap is one bad mother… Shut your mouth! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/12 "2015-04-23T20:10:55Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > 10,000 is about the size of a combat division (on the low end). And that includes all the support personnel. 10,000 front line combat troops is not a drop in the bucket. That is a couple of divisions worth of infantry. That die just as easily as farm boys when hit in the chest with an 8mm round. Bodies we had aplenty. I don’t see how landing super-soldiers on Omaha Beach instead of the 1st Division would have made much difference. As several have stated, the abilities Rogers gets make for commandos, not line crunchies. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/13 "2015-04-23T20:14:50Z")
Um…one? I mean look what one Captain America can do. > [@bump](#): > > There isn’t any indication that I’m aware of that Steve Rogers suddenly became better under fire or more fearless as a result of the super-soldier process. From the movie, I think the scene where pre-serum Rogers jumps on what he thinks is a live grenade is supposed to show us how he already had the fearlessness and sense of self-sacrifice. The serum just gave him the physical abilities to match. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/14 "2015-04-23T20:15:23Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That die just as easily as farm boys when hit in the chest with an 8mm round. Bodies we had aplenty. I don’t see how landing super-soldiers on Omaha Beach instead of the 1st Division would have made much difference. > > As several have stated, the abilities Rogers gets make for commandos, not line crunchies. Lot of Nazis shot at Cap. How many killed him? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/15 "2015-04-23T20:22:22Z")
Drop them instead of the 82nd and 101st. That way they can play behind the lines. That satisfies both of our positions and still adheres to the conditions of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/16 "2015-04-23T20:31:06Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s why I pointed out upthread that I’d rather have Rangers than a company of super-soldiers if the super-soldiers weren’t specially trained and selected. Yeah, so who says we just give the super serum to 10,000 dudes at random? Once we tested it on expendable 4F guys like Steve Rogers, we pick out elite troops to give it to, rather than farmboys. Or maybe better than infantry we give it to fighter pilots? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/17 "2015-04-23T20:36:31Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > From the movie, I think the scene where pre-serum Rogers jumps on what he thinks is a live grenade is supposed to show us how he already had the fearlessness and sense of self-sacrifice. The serum just gave him the physical abilities to match. After the serum, though, he’s able to remember the details of a map he saw in a Nazi bunker perfectly after glancing at it for just a second. There’s nothing indicating that he’s got a photographic memory before the treatment, so my assumption is that the serum sharpened his mental faculties as well. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/18 "2015-04-23T21:01:41Z")
Seems they’d be better off making more Human Torch androids, since he was the one to actually kill Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/19 "2015-04-23T21:13:47Z")
How about a group of 100, snorkeling in to the beaches on the night before D-Day, removing traps and sneaking up to the cliff-top bunkers? That might save a lot of lives when the invasion comes in the morning. It wouldn’t change the outcome much…but saving lives is a big part of U.S. strategy. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/20 "2015-04-23T21:17:40Z")
A Parachute Regiment worth of them. Feeding super soldiers in to the meat grinder on the beach wouldn’t have had sizeable effect. In the more permissive area tot he rear of the defenses a Regiment with proper tasking could have had more effect. Likely they could have done a better job sealing off the approaches to the beach and seized the exits earlier. Knowing you’ve got that force it might well have been possible to present a credible threat to the rear of the beach producing a sizeable effect. A whole Regiment because the scatter associated with the drops would tend to break up the super troopers in penny packets. That would constrain them to the mobility and capability of the regular forces they’d be reinforcing at that point. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378.md?page=2)