# How many Captain America-type super-soldiers would it haven taken to have a sizable effect on D-Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378 "2015-04-23T19:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/41 "2015-04-25T00:44:09Z")
…the damned board or my damned browser seems to have eaten my post from early this morning, noting that, from his demonstrated strength in the movie, Cap would have been easily capable of lifting a Roman-style and sized shield made of thick enough plate steel to stop a .50 BMG round at 100 yards. I had cites and links, too. 'Even made a crack about a Cap-type being [“The Tank,”](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnAdventurerIsYou) almost literally. [Feelin’ fine.](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lelhr72rwh1qzjg61o1_500.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/42 "2015-04-25T14:40:00Z")
**Sage Rat** ’s post inspires me to wonder… What if a woman had gotten the super-soldier treatment? I think it’s safe to say that, even allowing for real-world differences in physical capabilities between men and women, a super-soldier woman would still be far superior to typical men. Heck, Steve Rogers himself was probably physically inferior to the average woman, before the treatment. But would the US military have allowed a female Captain America to make nearly as much impact as the male one did? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/43 "2015-04-25T15:26:42Z")
It’s a comic book. They’d have hung to her knees. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/44 "2015-04-25T22:48:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Suggested because I saw a few minutes of the first Captain America movie on FX last night. When it’s clear that Steve Rogers is not going to simply be the first person to get the super-soldier treatment, but the only one, the Tommy Lee Jones character immediately loses interest in the project, saying he needs an army, not one man. > > So let’s make some assumptions. First, the super-soldier treatment is the only bit of magic tech available, and only the US has it. Second, that it’s expensive and difficult enough that there’s no question of giving it to every soldier; a maximum of 10,000 such supreme physical specimens can be created, and that’s going to be a major budgetary investment. Third, that production of said supers started around, oh, early 1943, and the full number was available and trained by, say, April 1944. > > How many super-soldiers do you think it would take to make a noticeable difference in D-Day? In European campaign overall? In the Pacific campaign? If you had Super Soldiers who could be shot like any other human than you wouldn’t have them dangling from parachutes or being the first guy out of the landing craft. So the first hours of D-Day would be the same historical cluster-fuck. After that, the commanders would send them in to clean up the mess. With even a small fraction of normal firepower from regular units to keep enemy heads down, the Super-Soldiers would become a force-multiplier that would allow regular Army units of Regiment size to curb-stomp similar-sized enemy units. One person with extraordinary perception, speed, courage, accuracy, and endurance working in close communication with the heavy weapons support provided to every US regiment could clear out a myriad of troubles, even if you don’t grant that one person a bullet-proof shield and lightning reflexes. So given these assumptions, the rest is easy: excludingparatroopsandassumingoneoutoffourCaptainsAmericagetshotanywaydespiteallorderstothecontraryandconsideringthatfourUSDivisionstookpartinthelandingsbutonlytwoevergotanypartoifthemselvesonthebeachbutwhocaresbecausethecommanderswouldsendintheherosassignedtoeverydivisionregardlessaftereverythinggoestoshitandnevermindheCanucksandBritsbecausewhoeverheardofcaptainteacupandletsassumeallamericansuperherosareinthesecondwaveandoverrunGermancoastaldefensesallowingmoresuperherostowalkoffboatssothataddsuptofourdivisionsmultipliedbythreeregikmentsperdivisionsubtractthreesuperherocasualtiesbecausenoteventruthjusticeandAmericancandoattitudestopsbulletsandaddtwofortherangersatPontDuHocbutbothofthemwouldhavebeenshotbutonemustaccountforfewerlossesarmywidebecauseheysuperheroesandthefinaltotal: =12. It would have required twelve Captains America for US forces to link-up with the 101/81 parachute divisions behind the Normandy beaches by noon on June 7th. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/45 "2015-04-26T06:00:34Z")
The hypothetical is a little unclear as to exactly how well the other super soldiers would stack up to the Captain. I’m only familiar with the movies, but my impression is that Steve’s innate character traits make him superior to other hypothetical super soldiers. He’s meant to have that certain heroic je na sais quoi that would be extremely rare, even among the best normal soldiers. So, giving the serum to other guys would result in troops with similar physical characteristics, but they wouldn’t necessarily be able to dive into the fray without being shot nearly as well as the Captain. So, it seems like the best way to utilize a bunch of super soldiers would be to give them equipment that couldn’t be used by normal humans. A squad of super soldiers with massive armor and heavy machine guns in front, supported by a few super snipers who can easily pick off enemy snipers, along with a team of sappers carrying enough explosives to level a few city blocks could reliably pierce almost any enemy line and cripple their supply routes in extremely short order. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/46 "2015-04-26T10:36:17Z")
A story of note: [A Marvel “What If?” comic](http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/eacapsuww.htm) once showcased a scenario where the formula and it’s creator were saved, leading to the creation of at least 500 supersoldiers by 1942. [spoiler]Although starting out OK, with the war essentially ending by December when a commando team kills or captures the Nazi’s leadership in a raid on Berlin, things turn bad—as they often do in "What If"s—when the Red Skull manages to swap places with Steve, eventually leading to a virtual SHIELD dictatorship backed by “President Rogers.” The latter, however, can hardly be blamed as a natural consequence of the mass production or deployment of supersoldiers.[/spoiler] Another interesting note—I can’t find a cite, but I think I recall reading, somewhere, that a later Marvel story said that the original plan, if “Operation: Rebirth” had been effective and safe, was to prepare the _second_ dose…for President Roosevelt himself. I assume to counter his health problems, not to send him out knocking heads with Cap. Still, if it had left him perfectly hale and hearty again…FDR in '48? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/47 "2015-04-26T16:47:09Z")
Here’s a question that may be too off-topic for this thread: what if Erskine had selected a young [Isaiah Bradley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley) as his subject and gives him the same training and shield as Cap. How would history have been changed? ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/48 "2015-04-30T16:43:50Z")
Only movie logic makes that shield worth anything. In real life, the bad guys would toss lots of grenades, try to surround the super soldiers, using machine guns and aim at the parts not protected by the shield. Captain America’s powers provide minimal if any protection against bullets. (by minimal, I’m pretty sure bullets rip right through his body like anyone else, but he might heal marginally faster (twice as fast or something, not wolverine style, so he still has to survive the gunbattle)) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/49 "2015-04-30T17:13:13Z")
I think the real use of super-soldiers on D-Day would not be as part of the beach landing, but as airborne troopers dropped behind enemy lines the night before. A dozen of them could land, make their way toward one of the beaches and knock out a lot of bunkers from the landward side, relieving pressure on the beach. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/50 "2015-04-30T17:14:48Z")
I’ve never been clear on HOW “super” Cap was supposed to be. Was he supposed to be superhuman, or just as strong/fast as a human being is physically capable of being? To put it another way… Bo Jackson was about as strong and fast as it’s feasible for a human being to be. Is Cap supposed to be as strong and fast as Bo, or a lot stronger and faster? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/51 "2015-04-30T17:23:52Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I’ve never been clear on HOW “super” Cap was supposed to be. Was he supposed to be superhuman, or just as strong/fast as a human being is physically capable of being? > > To put it another way… Bo Jackson was about as strong and fast as it’s feasible for a human being to be. Is Cap supposed to be as strong and fast as Bo, or a lot stronger and faster? I took it more that Cap is as strong as the strongest human can possibly be, while at the same time being as fast as the fastest human can possibly be – combinations not possible in the real world. So as fast as Usain Bolt, as strong as Hafthor Bjornsson, as agile as the greatest gymnast ever, with the stamina of the greatest long distance runner ever, etc. In the comic books, at least. That would make him significantly stronger and faster than Jackson. Further, his peak-human endurance means that he can exercise his peak-human speed and strength for much longer than the fastest and strongest “regular” folks – so he can maintain Usain Bolt’s top-sprint speed for much longer; hold up Bjornsson’s great weight for much longer; etc. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/52 "2015-04-30T21:35:42Z")
In fact, Captain America is often used to define the line between “human” and “metahuman” in Marvel discussions. If you’re better at anything than Cap, then you’re metahuman. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/53 "2015-04-30T23:13:38Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Only movie logic makes that shield worth anything. In real life, the bad guys would toss lots of grenades, try to surround the super soldiers, using machine guns and aim at the parts not protected by the shield. > > Captain America’s powers provide minimal if any protection against bullets. (by minimal, I’m pretty sure bullets rip right through his body like anyone else, but he might heal marginally faster (twice as fast or something, not wolverine style, so he still has to survive the gunbattle)) His exceptional endurance (and courage and determination) probably mean he can keep going with wounds that would debilitate a normal human. You shoot me in the leg, I’m done with walking for at least the next six months. You shoot Cap in the leg, he’s just going to start kicking you with the spare. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/54 "2015-04-30T23:43:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In fact, Captain America is often used to define the line between “human” and “metahuman” in Marvel discussions. If you’re better at anything than Cap, then you’re metahuman. I’ll agree, with the proviso that Cap’s ability to do it all makes him a meta as well. And of course he can take a lot of outright met as down, even without his shield. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/55 "2015-05-01T00:06:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I took it more that Cap is as strong as the strongest human can possibly be, while at the same time being as fast as the fastest human can possibly be – combinations not possible in the real world. So as fast as Usain Bolt, as strong as Hafthor Bjornsson, as agile as the greatest gymnast ever, with the stamina of the greatest long distance runner ever, etc. Basically a Human Paragon. I dunno. He’s clearly stronger and more durable than that in the Marvel movies. He takes a direct hit in the guts from a Chitari weapon, falls down and gets up hurting, but ready to keep fighting. Though definitely below Asgardian in that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/56 "2015-05-01T00:11:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I dunno. He’s clearly stronger and more durable than that in the Marvel movies. He takes a direct hit in the guts from a Chitari weapon, falls down and gets up hurting, but ready to keep fighting. Don’t forget, Cap’s outfit is also armored. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/57 "2015-05-01T02:26:30Z")
As a super-hero, Captain America spent most of the war countering Nazi super-villains. He prevented the Axis use of nerve-gas missiles, genetically engineered gorillas, werewolves, earthquake machines, robot doubles of Allied leaders, weather control and subterranean tunnelers. So it was a near zero-sum game in which the extraordinary assets of both sides were deadlocked against each other, leaving the conventional war to go on as usual. ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/58 "2015-05-01T04:41:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Sage Rat** ’s post inspires me to wonder… What if a woman had gotten the super-soldier treatment? I think it’s safe to say that, even allowing for real-world differences in physical capabilities between men and women, a super-soldier woman would still be far superior to typical men. Heck, Steve Rogers himself was probably physically inferior to the average woman, before the treatment. But would the US military have allowed a female Captain America to make nearly as much impact as the male one did? Two points. 1. Considering Rogers as you say went from a well below average man to a vastly superior one, a moderately athletic woman given the same percentage of improvement would have been better than Cap. 2. Woman in combat positions in armed forces is only recently gaining any level of acceptance, I can only see it happening back in the 40’s as a last resort. ---
**Author:** ![CaptainAmerica\_1987](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@CaptainAmerica\_1987](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptainAmerica_1987)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378/59 "2015-05-01T04:57:45Z")
I’ve thought about this before but unless the serum could be mass produced and quickly than it would be relegated to Special Forces or something that is a step above Special Forces and the closest thing to that is The Invaders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-captain-america-type-super-soldiers-would-it-haven-taken-to-have-a-sizable-effect-on-d-day/718378.md?page=2)