# How many Christians here have seen Fahrenheit 9/11 and feel it's ok to talk about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 2, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247 "2004-07-02T18:05:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/41 "2004-07-04T10:58:56Z")
> [@masonite](#): > > I’ve heard at least one Christian, and not a particularly pro-Bush one, say the Bible demands a certain level of respect for any government leader. Maybe it does, in places, but then you also have your Herods, your Pharoahs, etc. I would agree with the speaker that it does (of course, what level constitutes a “certain level” is up for debate, it’s kind of a fuzzy term). In fact, Nero (who has never been known as one of the better heads of government of all time, especially w.r.t. Christians) was the leader being referred to in at least one of those places. As far as the other board is concerned - it seems like it’s being run by another person who has confused and conflated American Jingoism with Christianity. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/42 "2004-07-04T12:48:45Z")
> [@masonite](#): > > I’ve heard at least one Christian, and not a particularly pro-Bush one, say the Bible demands a certain level of respect for any government leader. Perhaps he or she was referring to Matthew 22:21, "They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. " ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/43 "2004-07-04T19:18:53Z")
vanilla, please, I’m sure there are books that advocate your political beliefs which are written by sane people. If you want to persuade others, trying to give them David Icke books, even ones that don’t mention Reptilians, isn’t the best avenue. I no longer give Hal Lindsey & John Birch Society books to my non-C’tian friends and those books are way milder than Icke’s stuff. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/44 "2004-07-04T19:25:38Z")
I really hope that both sides can dump the “anti-American” label on opponents (it’s more prevalent being slung by the Right but the Left can toss it back occasionally also)- I will say that Moore is “anti-MYVisionOfAmerica” and I think he’s a wretched boor & thus have no plans to see the movie but I’m not going to lambast people who see & discuss the movie, tho I may vigorously argue with them about certain points (Our reason for the Afghan War being a natural gas pipeline?!?!) I certainly won’t doubt their C’tianity (tho I believe Biblical C’nity is not pacifistic). Mahaloth, how do you have F9/11 on DVD? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/45 "2004-07-04T19:29:23Z")
Friar, ha! Yes, but they had never heard of him. Imagine if they’d read it. They would ot like it, as Icke is sane sometimes and does mention in one of the books that religion was made up to control the populace. I am in the midst of reading Larry Flynt’s book Sex Lies and Politics, which is EXcellent! Doubt they would read it either. I recommend it. And its sane. ---
**Author:** ![Live\_Better\_Electrically](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@Live\_Better\_Electrically](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Live_Better_Electrically)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/46 "2004-07-04T19:42:03Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I…have no plans to see the movie but I’m not going to lambast people who see & discuss the movie, tho I may vigorously argue with them about certain points (Our reason for the Afghan War being a natural gas pipeline!!!) How can you argue about it if you don’t see the movie? Don’t accept second-hand accounts of what it says, because even the major news outlets have gotten that wrong (the _Newsweek_ article that claimed to “debunk” Moore’s account of Bin Ladens leaving the country after 9/11, for example). ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/47 "2004-07-04T20:04:47Z")
Some food for thought, maybe; here’s some Bible verses I found regarding respecting those in power. I really have no idea how a Christian might apply passages such as these to leaders such as Hitler; nor do I know if these passages make up an absolute command to respect anybody in power. I do suspect a balanced view of all the Scriptures would authorize anybody under a Hitler (or a Nero or a Pharoah) to fight and resist him. In a democracy such as the U.S., the President doesn’t have absolute power in the way these Biblical rulers had power, of course. The real authority in this country is our Constitution, I believe – which clearly allows the adversarial political system which we have, which doesn’t set politicians up as infallible kings, which distrusts centralized authority in general. I think Moore is perfectly in line with all Constitutional principles in making his film. On to the Bible passages, which I am not qualified to comment on individually. This is merely an arbitrary selection of verses which imply (to me) that God has set our temporaral rulers where they are. > [@](#): > > “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” > –John 19:10-11 > [@](#): > > Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. > –Romans 13:1-7 > [@](#): > > Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of your people. --Exodus 22:28 > [@](#): > > Those who were standing near Paul said, “You dare to insult God’s high priest?” Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’ --Acts 23:4-5 > [@](#): > > Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird of the air may carry your words, and a bird on the wing may report what you say. --Ecclesiastes 10:20 (Sorry if all this Bible-quotin’ comes across as witnessing in the wrong forum! Not my intent. Just responding to inquiries about the source of my original comment in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/48 "2004-07-04T20:49:41Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Perhaps he or she was referring to Matthew 22:21, "They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. " It’s more likely to have been Romans 13:1-7: > [@](#): > > Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honour, then honour. Clearly there are problems with these verses, and if I’m right in thinking that this is the passage which inspired the reported “one ought to have some measure of respect for rulers”, then whoever said that is more or less in the middle of the road as regards interpretation. It is of course difficult to argue that Paul means we ought to respect all governing authorities at all times, as the ubiquitous reference to Nazi Germany will remind us… > [@dreamer](#): > > … what if you were living in Nazi Germany when Hitler was the “Leader”? Could any Christian rationalize any respect for a man like that? But then 1st century Rome was not 20th century Germany. I really really seriously hope that no serious Christian teacher is yet complacent enough to teach unquestioning submission to governmental leaders, so unless your man is clearly a member of a church given to concocting its own theology as it suits them, it’s pretty important to allow him his default attitude of respect, for it’s likely to be founded in moderation, not madness. Personally I can understand a degree of impatience with persistent, instinctive attacks on all and any leaders - it makes it all the harder to see a Hitler when one appears. Maybe this is what the person is concerned about. It’s not really my position, I tend to think Moore does have a duty to attack Bush, because it’s what he believes and it’s where his talents lie. I happen to agree with him. I do wish we weren’t all herded into “left” and “right” camps, and told what we think… real life is so much more complex! > [@vanilla](#): > > … Icke is sane sometimes and does mention in one of the books that religion was made up to control the populace. Ooof! Reductionism. Not all that easy to argue satisfyingly. Much more “sane” to point out that while religion may have some benefits as a tool for controlling the populace, to suggest that that is its one and only utility is perhaps a little… hmmm. Why on earth am I arguing with David Icke?!? > [@Live Better Electrically!](#): > > How can you argue about it if you don’t see the movie? This is a good point, but we must remember that boycotting films is still considered an effective protest, and besides, going to the movies costs money. Thus: > [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > If I saw it, the reason I wouldn’t admit to it wouldn’t be because I’m a Christian. It’d be because I’d be ashamed of putting money in Moore’s pockets. Suppose someone released “[Rotten.com](http://Rotten.com), the movie”, and also argued that it was a strong argument against God’s existence. The “entertainment” approach to the images on [Rotten.com](http://Rotten.com) will severely prejudice me against seeing the film, even though one might well argue that nasty deaths and horrific injuries are good arguments against God’s existence. In fact you could probably put a pretty convincing movie together if you were actually arguing something, as I imagine Moore is. My own problem is that Moore has in the past tended toward lame satire, the very unfunniness of which tended severely to undermine the points he had to make. For me, at least. Many thought it was a great show. But I’ve never seen him do much successful arguing, or not really… I hope I’ve just missed it. I do sorta kinda wonder whether he actually expects to change anyone’s mind. He is clearly an intelligent and talented filmmaker, and has a genuine passion in his gut, but maybe someone else might tell us whether or not they actually found him _persuasive_ of things they didn’t already believe. I have yet to see the film. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/49 "2004-07-04T21:07:21Z")
Sorry, I had that post on the screen for a looong time and missed **masonite** ’s post. The 1984-ish Ecclesiastes passage may be considered simple survival advice, rather than an official commandment: watch your expression and your tongue when it occurs to you that the boss is a jerk, because these people don’t get to be bosses without finding out about that sort of thing rather quickly. That’s very much the style of Ecclesiastes, and I recommend it highly! ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/50 "2004-07-05T03:48:17Z")
“Do not curse the ruler of your people” Reeder is so going to hell then… ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/51 "2004-07-05T04:25:39Z")
Unless, of course, he’s forgiven. 🙂 :: remembers having cursed all sorts of rulers, and hopes for the best :: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/52 "2004-07-05T16:26:59Z")
Haven’t seen F9/11 myself, but based on some other Moore works, you could make a case not to see it based on Bible verses like [Proverbs 19:5 or Deuteronomy 5:20.](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=false+witness&SearchType=AND&version=NASB&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/53 "2004-07-05T17:34:44Z")
And you know Moore is lying because Rush told you so, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/54 "2004-07-06T01:58:31Z")
The only sort-of-new thing I come up with reading this is that I hope everyone is being careful not to fall victim to the temptation to demonize everyone in the group because of the actions of some. It’s very ironic to say, “Yeah, I hate that very large group for it villifies entire groups.” ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/55 "2004-07-06T11:28:22Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > And you know Moore is lying because Rush told you so, right? :rolleyes: He just said “you could make a case”. People do. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/56 "2004-07-06T12:21:54Z")
> [@dreamer](#): > > This is the explanation I got when asking why the thread was deleted. > > \*It was removed because I do not allow people to promote anything that even comes close to Anti-American propaganda. I know that some people (very few) will scream censorship. And that’s fine. I simply call it ownership. As an owner of this site I feel that it is my responsibility to keep the site free from this type of garbage. > \* Maybe you should think about joining a board that doesn’t confuse religion with politics. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/57 "2004-07-06T12:38:05Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I would agree with the speaker that it does (of course, what level constitutes a “certain level” is up for debate, it’s kind of a fuzzy term). In fact, Nero (who has never been known as one of the better heads of government of all time, especially w.r.t. Christians) was the leader being referred to in at least one of those places. > > As far as the other board is concerned - it seems like it’s being run by another person who has confused and conflated American Jingoism with Christianity. Ah well. I think he deserves “human” respect, just like anyone else. But I have absolutely no respect for him as a politician. Or as an American. I’m not much for christianity, either, but he even does THEM a disservice. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/58 "2004-07-06T13:56:37Z")
Maybe you should e-mail the link to this thread to the mod that closed the thread. Then (s)he could see what _real_ political discourse is. And I was wondering the same thing about **Mahaloth** ’s DVD until I saw his location… Might have something to do with it. I just saw the movie two days ago. To me, it was shocking… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/59 "2004-07-06T17:41:01Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > > [@rjung](#): > > > > And you know Moore is lying because Rush told you so, right? > > He just said “you could make a case”. People do. Oh, don’t worry about it, **Ross**. **rjung** has taken it into his head that “you listen to Rush Limbaugh!” is a devastating insult, but useable outside the Pit. And it saves him the trouble of actually conducting a reasonable conversation about a point of view other than his own. Fortunately, this is about the worst he can do, so no worries. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247/60 "2004-07-07T01:48:29Z")
If you want to go off-topic with personal attacks, go start a thread in The BBQ Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-christians-here-have-seen-fahrenheit-9-11-and-feel-its-ok-to-talk-about-it/253247.md?page=2)