# How many cities have large underground complexes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258 "2004-09-21T03:45:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/41 "2004-09-21T17:42:55Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Another underground, although not an especially large one, is in Seattle. It consists of the old sidewalks and storefronts of the city, which have sunk and been built on top of. The [tour](http://www.undergroundtour.com/), which i took on my last visit, is very interesting. Wasn’t there a similar deal in Sacramento? A new downtown on top of an old downtown? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/42 "2004-09-21T17:53:09Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Have a look at [Mary King’s Close](http://www.realmarykingsclose.com/Templates/MKC_Default.asp?mID=Content&uID=180) . An underground street from the 17th century. This isn’t an example of a street that was dug underground, it simply disappeared beneath the city as it grew. It was then pretty much forgotten about for the next 350 years. > > Some claim that it was deliberately sealed off in 1645 because the occupants of the street had the plague, making it an enormous tomb, but that’s fanciful conjecture played up for the tourist’s benefit. (Oooh! Scary ghosts!) But it is a well preserved example of early subterranean street life. Can you please provide me with a book title on this very interesting topic? 🙂🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/43 "2004-09-21T18:21:15Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > How about the catacombs of Rome? I’m voting for “oldest” here… Minor nit… the Catacombs aren’t really _in_ Rome. Even today, they are a mile or so outside the city on some of the ancient roads. ---
**Author:** ![Thirty-Nine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f0a364/32.png) [@Thirty-Nine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thirty-Nine)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/44 "2004-09-21T18:26:24Z")
Singapore has an impressive train network known as the MRT (Mass Rapit Transit), with 19km of it being underground in the city centre. Some of these stations may have links to malls and businesses. The Zuerich Hauptbahnhof (main station) has a vast underground shopping centre, covering everything from groceries to electronics. Bonus points for finding the gigantic vending machine that takes up an entire wall and uses a robotic arm to collect purchases! This area is linked by the mainline to a smaller underground shopping area beneath the Stadelhofen station. Aside from that, there is little else subterranean - although the main street (Bahnhofstrasse) was built over a river, and rumors persist of Swiss gold beneath Paradeplatz… ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/45 "2004-09-21T18:28:18Z")
[Here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3639684.stm) is some recent news relating to the caverns and passages beneath Paris. They are, IIRC, mostly mine shafts. Many years ago the graveyards of that city were emptied and all the bones were transfered to the these old mine workings. Today there are still more people in these shafts than are alive on the surface. There are very few that are supposed to be open to the public because of security fears. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/46 "2004-09-21T18:30:18Z")
> [@aahala](#): > > It’s owned by the same family that owns the largest limestone operation in the area, the World’s of Fun amusement park and the KC Chiefs football team - Lamar Hunt. Besides the Chiefs, the Hunts may be the biggest boosters of soccer in the USA. They own the KC Wizards of MLS and also founded the Columbus Crew. The Lamar Hunt trophy is awarded to the winner of Major League Soccer. FWIW, here’s a link to the Hunt’s [website on Subtropolis](http://www.huntmidwest.com/Subtropolis/WhatIsSubtropolis.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/47 "2004-09-21T18:45:46Z")
There is a network of tunnels under Liverpool built by the eccentric Joseph Williamson in the early 1800’s . This web-site gives more details :- [http://www.williamsontunnels.com/intro.htm](http://www.williamsontunnels.com/intro.htm) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/48 "2004-09-21T18:54:56Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Minor nit… > > the Catacombs aren’t really _in_ Rome. Even today, they are a mile or so outside the city on some of the ancient roads. I did not know that! I was always under the impression that the catacombs were under the city itself. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/49 "2004-09-21T19:42:20Z")
Checking in from home, Philadelphia has an extensive pedestrian tunnel system that’ll get you from the mall in the former Lit Bros. building at 7th & Market as far NW as Suburban Station regional rail at about 18th and JFK Blvd. This connects City Hall, 2 department stores with underground floors, one small underground mall (with a post office), 2 malls with underground floors, and most of the Penn Center office buildings. You can also follow the tunnels south on Broad Street as far as Lombard St., but this section contains nothing of interest. It’s all unheated, thus more popular on a rainy day than a cold one. Lima, Peru had an interesting European-style catacomb burial system, part of which you can visit via one of the larger churches for a small admission. Seems it connected the major central churches at one time but (as best as I could make out from the guide) no longer. I recommmed it, pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/50 "2004-09-21T20:54:30Z")
Rabat in Malta has early Christian catacombs. reputedly St Paul hid out in them for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Thrillhouse15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@Thrillhouse15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thrillhouse15)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/51 "2004-09-21T21:01:24Z")
I vacationed in Washington DC this summer, and stayed in Crystal City, Arlington, VA. There’s a reasonably large shopping area underneath several of the hotels and centered on the metra station. The various entrances were pretty far apart from each other, at least farther than most train stations I’ve ever visited. So you can travel underground a decent distance in Crystal City. By the way, I remember being kind of disappointed with the Atlanta underground shopping mall. Not very big, and not many stores that interested me. I think there was a good seafood place down there, though. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/52 "2004-09-21T21:15:00Z")
How about those tunneling Swiss? Switzerland has a huge underground shelter, that includes microfilm of almost everything Swiss – and a blueprint of much of Geneva so that it can be rebuilt in event … it needs to. [http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=105&sid=5140656](http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=105&sid=5140656) Supposedly under Zurich there is enough room for every citizen, and inm Switzerland for every citizen, and all new Swiss houses now need bomb shelters built in them. [http://www.blc.arizona.edu/UBRP/gazette/99-04/a4.html](http://www.blc.arizona.edu/UBRP/gazette/99-04/a4.html) [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/08/archive/main320577.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/08/archive/main320577.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/53 "2004-09-21T21:56:24Z")
The city of Maastricht, in the Netherlands, has a extensive network of tunnels underneath it, the casemates. Casemate is an Englified French military term for underground fortification. The Maastricht Casemates, built mostly around 1770, go under the whole city, and there are even underground corridors to fortifications 1-2 kilometers away. There are even connections to the maze of corridors that make a Swiss cheese out of our local mountain, [Mount St Peter](http://www.vvvmaastricht.nl/Dagjeuit/?lang=en), although the maze in Mount St Pieter wasn’t made for military purposes, but for mining limestone instead. All of the casemates are dug in a limestone layer that lies underneath Maastricht. Some are lined with bricks. Many old houses have cellars leading into the casemates, and use parts for storage (they make excellent wine-cellars). Are the tunnels and casemates still used? Officially, no; but I’ve been told that at night, more people are up and about in the caves, then in the deserted city centre. > [@](#): > > As over the centuries more and more marlstone was extracted, the interior of Mount St. Peter became honeycombed with 20,000 passages boring into its interior. You shouldn’t miss these unique underground caves, called the Northern Caves and the Zonneberg Caves. From the Roman times to the days of medieval sieges, to the 4 years of enemy occupation during World War II, their passages have served as a place of refuge. Many people have left behind drawings and signatures on the marlstone walls. During World War II, the caves sheltered such Dutch masterpieces as Rembrandt’s The Night Watch and other treasures that were hidden away from the Nazis. You follow your guide’s lantern through a labyrinth of 6 to 12m (20-40-ft.) high tunnels. Stay close to that lantern – tales are told of those who entered the 200km (120 miles) of tunnels and were never seen again (ask about the four monks). NATO uses some of the caves for an underground communications complex; others make ideal caves where Château Neercanne stores its vintage wines. The temperature underground is about 50°F (10°C), and it’s damp, so bring a cardigan or a coat to protect against the chill. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/54 "2004-09-21T22:01:27Z")
Although much of it deals with stuff discounted in the OP, I find them interesting, so here’s three links of various British tunnels’n’stuff: [http://www.starfury.demon.co.uk/uground/](http://www.starfury.demon.co.uk/uground/) [http://www.mailrail.co.uk/](http://www.mailrail.co.uk/) [http://www.subbrit.org.uk/](http://www.subbrit.org.uk/) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/55 "2004-09-21T22:33:03Z")
Still interesting, **G-Man**. thanks I’m amazed how much stuff is under our cities. Like that PBS show about under NYC. Wow. And then to add on top of all that, places made for us to live, work, walk, die, fight… Really wild stuff! ---
**Author:** ![jweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71c47a/32.png) [@jweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jweb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/56 "2004-09-22T04:36:31Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > TJust for comparison, Minneapolis has a second-floor-level [Skyway](http://minneapolis.about.com/cs/shoppingservice/a/skyways.htm) network that bears a striking resemblance to a Human Habitrail linking most of the downtown buildings. Here’s a [map](http://www.cockeyed.com/minneapolis/Untitled-14.jpg) of it. Here’s a [.pdf](http://www.tonnhaus.com/portfolio/city_area/mpls_skyway.pdf) of the Minneapolis skyway system that’s much easier to read. I love the skyway, especially in the winter, I can go almost anywhere I want to downtown for lunch without having to walk outside. Also, while it’s not quite the same as the other things mentioned in this thread, part of the Detroit metro area sits above an underground [salt mine.](http://www.saltinstitute.org/mich-1.html) (scroll about 2/3 of the way down to see a map of where the mine is located). ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/57 "2004-09-22T09:48:19Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Can you please provide me with a book title on this very interesting topic? > > 🙂🙂 Try “set in Darkness” by Ian Rankin - it’s one of his Inspector Rebus books and features the street, as well as being a very good novel. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/58 "2004-09-22T09:51:08Z")
A lot of people in Montreal claim that it has the largest underground city. I lived there for about 10 years and while it’s true that the network of underground malls and connecting tunnels is vast and useful in winter I doubt it’s _the_ biggest in the world. For one, both **Nagoya** and **Osaka** have similar complexes and for having spent a lot of time in all three cities, underground Nagoya and Osaka _feel_ larger than Montreal. I suppose it depends how you define “underground city”. Osaka beats Montreal by a long, long shot when it comes to the number of people underground at any given time of day, and I’m pretty sure the area accessible to anyone is greater also. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/59 "2004-09-22T10:38:49Z")
During the cold war, didn’t SWEDEN construct a vast netwrok of underground bomb shelters" I once saw that they had hospitals, garages, churches, etc., built under the cityof Stockholm. I wonder what they use these things for now? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ChristmasEve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@ChristmasEve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChristmasEve)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258/60 "2004-09-22T16:28:26Z")
**GorillaMan** has already linked to the Subterranea Britannica website, which was my first thought on reading this thread. It lists 70 types of underground sites, and has detailed info on many, mostly military or transport. Most of these sites are privately owned and cannot be accessed by the public. The OP asked about complexes, rather than single buildings, and I think that Hack Green Secret Bunker (clearly no longer a _secret_) on the Cheshire borders falls into this category. This amazing concrete labyrinth built in the 1950s would have become a secret regional government HQ had nuclear war broken out. Linked to a series of similar bunkers in other regions, Hack Green would have been populated by around 150 military personnel and civil servants, who would have taken command of North West England. The complex includes a BBC studio, an office for the Minster of State and a fallout filtration plant. Hack Green contains some thought provoking material on the Thatcher/Regan era, including an assessment of the effect of a nuclear attack on my current home town. The bunker has been restored/retained as it was in the 1980s, with dormitories and army cots for the workers, decontamination and first aid suites and various communications rooms. It reproduces copies of the _Protect and Survive_ leaflet (issued by the British Government to advise the public how to build a nuclear shelter and prepare for attack - and later the subject of action under the name _Protest and Survive_) - and runs screenings of various public safety films of that era. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-cities-have-large-underground-complexes/265258.md?page=4)