# How many generations before someone ceases to be considered Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512 "2012-09-22T17:25:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/21 "2012-09-23T03:23:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The great [Sir Fred Trueman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Trueman) one of the greatest cricketers of all time discovered late in life that his maternal grandmother had been Jewish and according to wiki, that made him Jewish as well. Well not really just according to wiki, they are merely citing _“T’fastest Jewish bowler ever”_ from the **Jewish Chronicle**. 7 July 2006. A few additional details from the [Jewish Chronicle Online](http://www.thejc.com/sport/sport-news/six-hitting-springboks-put-test): \*Shortly after the Yorkshireman’s death in 2006, a JC correspondent claimed that Trueman had admitted to him in 1993 that he had only recently discovered that his maternal grandmother was Jewish and that his mother, Ethel, had been put up for adoption. “Freddie said he was perfectly happy to be considered Jewish. ‘But don’t expect me to stop eating bacon sandwiches,’ he added.” \* ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/22 "2012-09-23T03:51:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And there is no such thing as Jewish “law” either. Yes there is. There’s a lot of it. It’s pretty complicated. ---
**Author:** ![WCStyles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7cd45c/32.png) [@WCStyles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WCStyles)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/23 "2012-09-23T05:19:49Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Wait a minute, I’m confused about something. If Abraham was the first Jew, and his wife Sarah was not Jewish . . . then none of their offspring would be Jewish . . . so nobody today is Jewish. The first Jew would have had to be female. > > So if Abraham was the first Jew, who was the second? > > Of course I’m leaving out people who had converted. Isaac? There’s really no other answer if you consider Abraham as the first. There was no radical reconfiguration of belief in the wake of the attempted sacrifice, just a reformation in ritual, and confirmation of Abraham as sort of a second (third?) Adam in the wake of the Sodom and Gomorrah purification. Sarah’s thoughts on the whole “sacrifice Isaac” thing aren’t addressed in Genesis, as it proceeds straight to her death. The purchase of her burial plot from Ephron the Hittite did give Abraham’s descendants their first indisputable land rights in the promised land, though. I might submit after all, that there were no Jews until the ratification of the covenant with Moses in Exodus 24:7. There were certainly Israelites, but wouldn’t Judaism have to start with the Covenant? I may not understand this as well as I think I do, so I hope someone will be along to set me straight if I’m wrong. Zev Steinhardt, I’d probably trust most to weigh in. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/24 "2012-09-23T07:36:01Z")
But Isaac’s mother wasn’t Jewish. Nobody’s mother was Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/25 "2012-09-23T12:38:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And already answered. Under traditional (not Reform) law, it does not matter if many generations were apostates. If the mother was Jewish under Jewish law, the child is, down the generations, _no matter how many generations of non-observance or lack of Jewish identity._ The issue would only be documenting that such is the case. > > Reform law is different and can be either parent but requires being raised with a Jewish identity. I guess OP wants cites. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/26 "2012-09-23T12:42:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > … > > And there is no such thing as Jewish “law” either. Is this a whoosh? “Law” as opposed to law? My law, their law, everybody’s law? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/27 "2012-09-23T12:44:08Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I guess OP wants cites. Would be very nice. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/28 "2012-09-23T14:23:35Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I guess OP wants cites. > [@AK84](#): > > Would be very nice. Well you accept without need for a specific cite that other than Reform the ruling is that legal Jewish is Matrilineal. There is nothing that says 50% Jewish or 98% Jewish. It is just Jewish. 100%. No additional cite needed. If the woman is Jewish by Jewish law because her mother was Jewish (by law) then the daughter’s daughter is Jewish and that girl’s daughter, also the daughter of a Jewish woman, is Jewish … no matter how they were raised or who the father was over how many generations. There is no dilution of the ruling possible over generations when each one counts as completely Jewish. Legally anyway (not Reform). The other path open being conversion of course. How much that legal bit matters I don’t know. Practically it is another thing. Identity is much more than the official legal definition in the majority of the denominations. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/29 "2012-09-23T14:29:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Presume for arguments sake that the persons knows about the last ancestor being Jewish and he is a [Kali](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali) worshipper. Then he is a Jewish apostate, but still Jewish. Since he’s a he, though, the line dies with him unless he marries and has kids with a Nice Jewish Girl. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/30 "2012-09-23T14:35:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Seriously, the only factual answer is that you determine your own religion. No outsider can impose a religion on you. > > And there is no such thing as Jewish “law” either. I have a good friend whose mother and father were Jewish. His grandparents were all Jewish as well. He is not. Go ahead, ask him, he’ll tell you. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/31 "2012-09-23T14:43:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Well you accept without need for a specific cite that other than Reform the ruling is that legal Jewish is Matrilineal. There is nothing that says 50% Jewish or 98% Jewish. It is just Jewish. 100%. No additional cite needed. If the woman is Jewish by Jewish law because her mother was Jewish (by law) then the daughter’s daughter is Jewish and that girl’s daughter, also the daughter of a Jewish woman, is Jewish … no matter how they were raised or who the father was over how many generations. There is no dilution of the ruling possible over generations when each one counts as completely Jewish. Legally anyway (not Reform). The other path open being conversion of course. > > How much that legal bit matters I don’t know. Practically it is another thing. Identity is much more than the official legal definition in the majority of the denominations. A scholarly article or a ruling from some authority (does not matter which) would certainly be appreciated. Not that I disbelieve you or anyone else, but I suspect this might have come up or been an issue in a matter at some time? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/32 "2012-09-23T14:59:45Z")
**kayaker** , the op was not about what your friend would consider his identity but what Jewish law would say he is. By Jewish law (again excepting Reform tradition) that friend is an apostate and Jewish. It does not matter if he calls himself Baptist from that perspective. The [Jewish Virtual Library](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html) entry on the subject of who is a Jew. And on [apostates](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01188.html). > [@](#): > > In Jewish religious law, it is technically impossible for a Jew (born to a Jewish mother or properly converted to Judaism) to change his religion. Even though a Jew undergoes the rites of admission to another religious faith and formally renounces the Jewish religion he remains – as far as the halakhah is concerned – a Jew, albeit a sinner (Sanh. 44a). According to \*Naḥmanides this attitude derives from the fact that the covenant between God and Israel was made “with him that standeth here with us today before the Lord our God and also with him that is not with us here today” (Deut. 29:14; Naḥmanides ad loc.). For the born Jew, Judaism is not a matter of choice and for the proselyte it ceases to be one once he has converted. However, persons who did assume another religion or formally renounced Judaism are treated differently by Jewish law from Jews who, even while sinning, have not taken such actions. These people are known in the halakhah as mumar (from the root meaning “to change”), or meshummad (from the root meaning “to persecute or force abandonment of faith”), or apikoros (“heretic”), or kofer (“denier”), or poshe’a Yisrael (“rebellious Jew”). … > > … A child born of an apostate mother is a Jew, regardless of the stage at which she became an apostate … > > … Legends of apostates abound in Jewish folktales concerning blood libels. Portrayed as a greater enemy to the Jewish people than the Gentile, the apostate is described as the cause of numerous antisemitic persecutions and Jewish communal disasters. In his attempt to prove his worth to the antisemites, he spreads calumnies against the Jews and leads the attacks on them. It was customary to spit three times on the ground when meeting an apostate, and to recite Isaiah 49:17. The figure of the apostate is also ridiculed in many tales … Note the child of an apostate mother is a Jew. Period. Does that suffice? Traditional Jewish law views Gentiles as only obligated to follow the [seven Noahide laws](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html); apostates are Jews and viewed as obligated to follow the laws that Jews must follow beyond those seven. Thus they are sinners to traditional Jewish thinking even if they would be considered good people viewed as Gentiles. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/33 "2012-09-23T15:05:41Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Is this a whoosh? “Law” as opposed to law? My law, their law, everybody’s law? If Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews take the same underlying material and interpret it differently, then it is not a “law.” It’s something else: call it a tradition. Even “laws” are not absolute. The Ten Commandments have multiple interpretations, down to something as seemingly absolute as “thou shalt not kill.” Obviously, this is true for all religions, or ask the 98% of Catholic women of child-bearing age who use contraceptives what a “law” is. The fact that religions schism over interpretations of scripture is proof that "laws’ aren’t really “laws” but can be interpreted and enforced differently by every body of believers. Which is why “How many generations before someone ceases to be considered Jewish?” is an unanswerable question. And an unenforceable “law” is not really a law. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/34 "2012-09-23T15:06:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Then he is a Jewish apostate, but still Jewish. > > Since he’s a he, though, the line dies with him unless he marries and has kids with a Nice Jewish Girl. What if shes a naughty Jewish girl:D? On a more seriously note, it does raise a side issue, does it have to be a legitimate decent? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/35 "2012-09-23T15:21:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What if shes a naughty Jewish girl:D? > > On a more seriously note, it does raise a side issue, does it have to be a legitimate decent? If she’s legitimate and decent, she’s not nearly naughty enough 😃 Yeah, I know it’s just a stupid typo\* - but I’m pretty sure you meant descent. More to the point, if I understand what you’re asking, no, it doesn’t have to be legitimate descent; that’s pretty much the whole _point_ of matrilineal descent! The fact that, come Hell or High Water, while we may have no idea Who’s Your **Daddy** , we **do** know for certain (or for as certain as humanly possible) who one’s **mother** is. So “legitimacy” is moot. - If I had a dollar for every typo _I’ve_ made on the internet, I could quit the day job! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/36 "2012-09-23T15:35:42Z")
Serious answer. By the Orthodox rulings “legitimate” means is Jewish, which could be by an acceptable conversion or birth to a mother who is Jewish by law even if she is an apostate. She can be as naughty as she wants, unmarried, married and adulterous, she’s still Jewish, a sinning Jew. By Orthodox standards most of us American Jews are. **Expanso** ’s take is an odd one. Individual bodies can and do differ about interpretations of laws all the time. If I am within the Orthodox jurisdiction then their interpretations apply and my adopted daughter, converted at one year of life but not in an Orthodox ceremony, is not Jewish. If she wanted to marry an Orthodox man she would need to reconvert before an Orthodox Rabbi would consent to perform the ceremony and in a community of Orthodox Jews she, without that, would not be considered Jewish nor would their children. With that they would be. In Conservative and Reform jurisdictions she is 100% Jewish. Different jurisdictions having different interpretations of the laws and developing different case law from the same source material does not make them any less “laws.” And by a Conservative jurisdiction her child is 100% Jewish even if she marries a Catholic boy and he or she is raised Catholic, while if my son (born to two Jewish parents and Bar Mitzvahed) marries a secular Christian girl has a child and raises him or her with a Jewish identity then that child is only Jewish within a Reform congregation’s jurisdiction. He or she would need to be converted before a Bar or Bat Mitzvah or as an adult before getting the honor of opening the ark (containing the Torah) if they were in a Conservative or Orthodox congregation. The enforcement may not mean much and may be variable depending what temple you attend but it does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/37 "2012-09-23T15:47:26Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Israeli Law of Return isn’t really relevant, all it does is grant the grandchild of a Jewish person the right to immigrate to Israel and receive citizenship, whether the immigrant is considered Jewish by religious law or not… This is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/38 "2012-09-23T16:42:24Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > This is incorrect. IMHO the correct thing to do when saying “this is incorrect,” is to then go on to correct the incorrect statement with whatever you believe is more correct. I’d say that strictly speaking cites are optional, but they are usually appreciated and they lend more impact to the correction. Just saying “this is incorrect” with no additional information tends to add little to the conversation other than a dash of antagonism. At any rate the [Law of Return](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return) for those interested. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/39 "2012-09-23T17:28:48Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > (note: this is not godwinizing the thread-- it’s relevant data …) > > Hitler defined a Jew as anyone with one Jewish grandparent. > And because of that, Israel today uses the same definition for its immigration law, known as “the Law of Return”. The Law of Return defines who’s allowed to immigrate to Israel, not who is a Jew. For that Israel follows the law of matrilineal decent. This has major implications for familiy in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512/40 "2012-09-23T18:34:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > If Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews take the same underlying material and interpret it differently, then it is not a “law.” It’s something else: call it a tradition. Reform and Orthodox Jews both agree as to what Halakah is. They disagree about it’s origins (whether it’s divine or human) and as to whether or not it has any authority for modern Jews. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-generations-before-someone-ceases-to-be-considered-jewish/635512.md?page=3)