# How many human races are there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359 "2015-09-24T01:03:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/41 "2015-09-24T16:44:30Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Any more info on this Senator? Here you go: [Bulworth (1998)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulworth). ---
**Author:** ![Cracked](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Cracked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cracked)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/42 "2015-09-24T16:49:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just so you know, you haven’t presented even the tiniest bit of an argument, other than “I’m a special snowflake who thinks this must be true” to back up your thesis. Most people here are going to agree with you, so they won’t challenge you all that much. But, frankly, your argument doesn’t hold water. It’s like what I used to tell my students when I was a TA: it’s not about getting the right answer, it’s knowing why the answer is right. > > So, the question I will ask you is: Do you want to understand how to make an argument about race, or are you just witnessing to tell us that you, join date Sept 2015, are one of the folks who just feel that they’re right no matter whether they can actually demonstrate that they are or not. I stand not to be right or wrong, only to understand the opinions of others to better develop my understanding of the issue. By sharing my opinion and reading the opinions and references of others I am able to see the different sides of the debate while slowly developing a intellectual level of understanding. As far as the special snowflake, let me ask you these questions…are the words that I stated in any way offensive to you or do they provoke you into insulting me as an individual? Is it not just enough to say you disagree with my opinion and state why you disagree? Why doesn’t my argument hold water? Let me provide you with my rebutal to your last paragraph now. I as an individual i have traced my ancestors through many different cultures, religions, and geographical regions. I have found that french, german, italian, native american, and African are all part of who I am today. Hence my opinion that the world is a melting pot of cultures. One could argue that if races exist, what race would I be? Since I am the one that started this thread I need not provide the arguement. I only need provide the context that will drive others to respond. This was my goal and as such have achieved this goal while learning the opinions and theories of others. So please either provide your insight or move on. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/43 "2015-09-24T16:50:17Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Is there any sympathy for the “micro-races” view – that there are meaningful reproductively isolated groups of people who have physical characteristics that are recognizable? Humans really do come in visibly distinguishable groups. Such groups do exist. The previously mentioned Tasmanians were reproductivly isolated for at least 4 000 years. The Andamaners between 50 - 60 000 years, long enough to have no Denisovan DNA. The Saami apparently went trough a period of reproductive isolation of about 15 000 years at one point, and there are indications that the ancestors of Native American were reproductively isolated in Beringia for about the same amount of time. And there are Khoisan groups whos most recent shared ancestor with other human groups were 150 000 years ago. None of which is even close to the number of generations we need to call any of these groups a biologically separate “race”. Unless you use the word race to mean something totally different from what it means when we use it about any other species. In which case you’d be better off using a different word altogether. Visible differences are just nowhere near enough. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/44 "2015-09-24T17:00:34Z")
Just to be clear, there is no way the Khosian groups were reproductively isolated for 150,000 years. We also have genetic modeling studies that show the Identical Ancestor Point to be somewhere at 5K - 15K years ago. That means everyone alive at that point was either an ancestor of everyone alive today or an ancestor of no one alive today. This may seem hard to believe, but since the Age of Discovery (some 500 years ago), there’s been a lot of sexy-time going on all around the world between native and non-native populations. A group that may have had almost no contact with Western Colonization efforts will still have had contact with many groups that did have such contact. We’ve been over this a few times in GQ, so just search for “Identical Ancestor Point” and you’ll find the threads. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/45 "2015-09-24T17:23:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is logically inconsistent to believe in evolution and not in race. Simple evolutionary theory should tell us that populations which are geographically separated for thousands of years will grow genetically distinct over time. > Genetic studies have shown this to be true. This [study (pdf)](https://web.stanford.edu/group/rosenberglab/papers/popstruct.pdf)shows five distinct genetic clusters that are concentrated in geographic areas. Those areas are Africa, Eurasia, East Asia, Oceania, and America. The populations haven’t been separated. Genetic studies have shown this. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/46 "2015-09-24T17:24:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, there is no way the Khosian groups were reproductively isolated for 150,000 years. I think there’s a bit of a misunderstanding to do with Y-chromosome studies and Khoisan matrilineal traditions ([see this article](http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/khoisan-people-south-africa-were-once-most-populous-humans-earth-002448)) but yes, as a group they were definitely not that isolated. Xhosa Bantu can have quite a high % of Khoisan ancestry (most famously, Nelson Mandela, Haplogroup L0d) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/47 "2015-09-24T17:26:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think there’s a bit of a misunderstanding to do with Y-chromosome studies and Khoisan matrilineal traditions ([see this article](http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/khoisan-people-south-africa-were-once-most-populous-humans-earth-002448)) but yes, as a group they were definitely not that isolated. Xhosa Bantu can have quite a high % of Khoisan ancestry (most famously, Nelson Mandela, Haplogroup L0d) I’m sure you’re right. I think the poster was a bit sloppy in what he’s posted, as no one in their right mind could think there would be a group of humans living in Africa who have been reproductively isolated for 150K years. I’d be shocked if there was such a group that existed for 150 years! ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/48 "2015-09-24T17:28:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think there’s a bit of a misunderstanding to do with Y-chromosome studies and Khoisan matrilineal traditions ([see this article](http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/khoisan-people-south-africa-were-once-most-populous-humans-earth-002448)) but yes, as a group they were definitely not that isolated. Xhosa Bantu can have quite a high % of Khoisan ancestry (most famously, Nelson Mandela, Haplogroup L0d) Afrikaners must have some Khoisan ancestry too. Wonder if there any studies on that? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/49 "2015-09-24T18:57:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And even if the general population felt that we were all one race (as is evident since ‘race’ is really meaningless and ill defined, and clearly we are all one species since we can interbreed with viable offspring) Denisovans, neanderthals, and who knows how many other archaic hominids could interbreed with us just fine and they’re not even the same species. If they were still alive I wonder if people would say they’re not different races, either. Plus biologists are constantly arguing over whether this or that is a different species or not when it’s all arbitrary human classifications. Race is an odd word, though. I hardly ever see it used outside of race realism discussions or high fantasy settings (they can usually interbreed there too). For non-human animals they’re called sub-species, breeds, or varieties. Even race realists and HBD types seem to adopt the more PC “populations” nowadays. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Ethnicity is not race. Close enough for government work. If you’re going to posit human races I’d think hundreds would be a closer match than the old three. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/50 "2015-09-24T19:13:23Z")
Is human morphology anywhere near as varied as that of _brassica oleracea_? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/51 "2015-09-24T19:24:10Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Denisovans, neanderthals, and who knows how many other archaic hominids could interbreed with us just fine and they’re not even the same species. Not quite. > **[Were Neanderthals a different species?](http://geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/02/04/were-neanderthals-a-different-species/)** > > Up to 40% of the Neanderthal genome may be preserved across our collective genomes, and the areas of the human genome where there are no traces whatsoever of Neanderthal genes may point to where we split as species. > [@](#): > > There are deserts on the X chromosome and in genes involved in the testes. Patterns like these in other species ranging from rabbits to fruit flies are regarded as signs that one species is about to split into two. > > Hybrid males descended from both branches tend to be infertile, like mules. That’s because males have only one X chromosome, and if it happens to be one that impairs their fertility, then they may not reproduce. Females have two X chromosomes, so even if one is impaired, if the other one is normal, it can rescue her ability to bear young. > > “So this suggests that the male hybrids might not have been fertile, whereas the females might have been fully fertile,” Svante Pääbo told Richard Harris of National Public Radio. Pääbo, the grand old man of ancient DNA based at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, was an author of the other paper, which appeared in Nature. We might have inherited most of our Neanderthal genes through hybrid females, he said. > > Fox News quoted Pääbo as saying Neanderthals must have been disappointed in their sons. > > Another author, David Reich of Harvard Medical School, told reporters that we and Neanderthals “were at the edge of biological compatibility.” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/52 "2015-09-24T19:39:17Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Close enough for government work. If you’re going to posit human races I’d think hundreds would be a closer match than the old three. Except that most ethnicities actually combine several popluations with genetically distinct origins. Even a cursory examination of a haplotype map shows that [virtually all populations have at least two and often more significant haplotype groups](https://heritageofjapan.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mtdna-map-world.jpg). It is interesting that the groups most strenuously concerned with maintaining some notion of “racial purity” and expressing xenophobia toward other ‘races’ or ethnicities or whathaveyou also have the largest number of combinations of mitochondrial haplotypes. “There’s such balance in nature.” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/53 "2015-09-24T19:48:42Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Is human morphology anywhere near as varied as that of _brassica oleracea_? I’ve seen some bad cases of cauliflower ear… . ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/54 "2015-09-24T19:52:43Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > . . . So if they are fuzzy and interbreeding, in what way do they meet your criteria of reproductively isolated with recognisable physical characteristics? How can a group be be both fuzzy \*and \*physically recognisable? How can it be both reproductively isolated \*and \*interbreeding with other groups? . . . Japanese look different than Koreans, who look different than Mongolians, who look different than Iranians, who… Just because a set is fuzzy doesn’t mean it doesn’t have boundaries. The fact that the many groups of mankind are physically recognizable has some meaning…or does it not? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/55 "2015-09-24T19:57:15Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t think there’s an agreed upon number of ethnic groups. Probably hundreds. . . . That, at least, matches a naive person’s observation of reality! There are a few hundred physically recognizable groups of people. It’s a little like characterizing languages. There really are a few hundred distinct languages…but these, too, are fuzzy, with dialects and creoles sometimes falling in between the “core centrum” languages as defined academically. In the ultimate, most pedantic sense, every human being speaks a slightly different language than even his closest friends and family, but that kind of pedantry does not advance anyone’s understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/56 "2015-09-24T19:59:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Somehow the “I know it when I see it” standard strikes me as lacking in rigor. But you can’t tell me, “You aren’t seeing what you think you’re seeing.” People don’t all look alike, and the differences are clumped in groups. This isn’t projecting pictures of the constellations on random stars; people really do look different from other people, by regionalized groups. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/57 "2015-09-24T20:04:33Z")
Go tell the government there’s only one race then maybe they’ll stop pestering me on forms as to what race I am. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/58 "2015-09-24T20:09:14Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Denisovans, neanderthals, and who knows how many other archaic hominids could interbreed with us just fine and they’re not even the same species. If they were still alive I wonder if people would say they’re not different races, either. Archaic humans. They were human beings. They, like we, are of course hominids as well, but relatively ‘modern’ (much less than 2M years old), as hominids/hominins go. I’m comfortable calling Denisovans, Neanderthals, Heidelberg/Rhodesian Men, Red Deer Cave People, and Flores Men, “different races” of humanity. The differences between them and us are sufficient to illustrate, by contrast, how small the differences among all extant humans are. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/59 "2015-09-24T20:13:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The fact that the many groups of mankind are physically recognizable has some meaning…or does it not? No, it has no more “meaning” in any practical or functional sense than the distinction between striped and solid pea pods. We can observe that phenotypes are associated with specific alleles that are distributed within a related population, and with sufficient isolation that distribution will approach uniformity, but that doesn’t mean that all other alleles are distributed with equal frequency or that those alleles are found uniquely within that population; in fact, for any given specific distinction you may make in one ‘race’ or identified population, it is virtually certain that you’ll find the same allele or a variant of in populations which share common ancestry. Yes, a studied eye can (often) distinguish someone of Japanese extraction from someone from Korea, but that is meaningful only in the presumption that both people self-identify with those linguistic or cultural affiliations. Realistically, the genetic variability between the two groups is so tiny that it can only be measured by sequencing whole genomes to distinguish tiny statistical variations across the population, and the functional difference between the two peoplen within an identified population from a genetic standpoint is, on average, less than the inherent overall variability between one Korean and another, or one Japanese and another. In other words, in nearly all populations, the phenotypical variation between a random group of people (and especially in terms of functional phenotypes like strength or intelligence) are much broader than the variations between populations in aggregate. The racial group metric of “they all look alike,” is just lazy prejudice, not useful categorization. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Go tell the government there’s only one race then maybe they’ll stop pestering me on forms as to what race I am. I just check other and write “Grand Prix” in the explanation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359/60 "2015-09-24T21:51:11Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Here you go: [Bulworth (1998)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulworth). I found that easily by Googling. The post I responded to was not representing him as a fictional character. The quote was “…I always like to remember the solution to racism offered by the former U.S. Senator from California, Jay Billington Bulworth…”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-human-races-are-there/732359.md?page=4)