# How many innocent people have been killed via the death penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327 "2000-11-15T17:20:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/21 "2000-11-16T10:17:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I know some who would rather have “100 guilty go free, rather than one innocent be punished”, but myself, I would rather one innocent be excecuted, to prevent the murder of 100. That, ultimately, brings in the question of “Which is more important… the health of Society as a whole, or the health of the individual members of that Society?” ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/22 "2000-11-16T10:41:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, I know some who would rather have “100 guilty go free, rather than one innocent be punished”, but myself, I would rather one innocent be excecuted, to prevent the murder of 100. But if an innocent person is executed, you have effectively allowed someone else to go unpunished. I don’t think any studies have shown that execution actually prevents murders. I find the idea of executing innocents abhorrent and scary. As for actual cases, I believe Sacco and Vanzetti were the only ones actually found not guilty posthumously in the US. The others were never cleared in a court of law. I suppose this offers some evidence as to the chances of continuing a fight after theexecution. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/23 "2000-11-16T12:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*I would rather one innocent be excecuted, to prevent the murder of 100. \*\* Would you feel the same if you were the one about to be wrongfully executed? And how would your wrongful execution prevent the murder of anyone? If an innocent is executed, then the guilty party goes free. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/24 "2000-11-16T12:07:51Z")
Note to self: read all posts before replying. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/25 "2000-11-16T12:58:51Z")
[This](http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/ws/item/0,1308,37842-0-37872,00.html) is a link from a previous death penalty thread. It contains this quote. "“The system is not working,” Harrison wrote. “Innocent people are being sentenced to death. If these men dodged the executioner, it was only because of luck and the dedication of the attorneys, reporters, family members and volunteers who labored to win their release. They survived despite the criminal justice system, not because of it. . . . One must wonder how many others have not been so fortunate.” Harrison is not a defense lawyer, but a member of the Illinois Supreme Court. Again, he states that the innocent men freed from death row were _lucky_! “They survived despite the criminal justice system, not because of it. . . . One must wonder how many others have not been so fortunate.” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/26 "2000-11-16T13:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*…(they loosly based “the Fugitive” on his case) was recently in court trying to get his fathers conviction over turned. \*\* Yes, and the family of Dr. Mudd still are fighting for exhoneration. Point is, though, that’s 2 cases in over 100 years, both of which are extremely high profile, and largely fueled by the relatives of the convicted killer. and now on to: > [@](#): > > \*\*Note that in that same GD another poster listed a study in the Columbia law Review, which showed that in 1990\>1994 some 824 murders were done by 810 men who had ALREADY been convicted of murder. …I would rather one innocent be excecuted, to prevent the murder of 100. \*\* others have already taken you to task about the latter part, let me point out your poor reasoning on the upper part. In our country, there are many different levels of “murder” and punishments therein. Since you aren’t submitting the specifics involved, it’s difficult to make any reasonable assumption about the circumstances. Are these cases of some one who plotted and planned a person’s death, then was released and did the same thing? Or are these cases where one prisoner, already serving time for murder, kills another? Vehicular homicide, the driver at an armed robbery where some one died are other instances of criminally defined murders. note, I am NOT saying that any one person’s death is not a tragedy, nor am I claiming that vehicular homicide is some how NOT the person’s fault. What I am trying to point out is that unless you’re advocating the death penalty for ALL cases of homicide, statements like “those 1000 people wouldn’t have died” don’t really speak to the situation. Taken to it’s extreme, we could darn near eliminate crime if we advocated the death penalty be immediately imposed for any and all criminal behavior. Or, all people who have been found guilty of ANY criminal behavior be locked up until they die of natural causes. Of course, then, we’d have a good portion of our population incarcerated and the rest as paid guards, but, hey, them’s the breaks. Point being that we, as a society, have chosen a graduated system of criminal justice with lesser penalties for lesser offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/27 "2000-11-16T17:11:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoff \* > \*\*Stockemup is using a couple of debating techniques on you. First, it is almost impossible to prove a person’s innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. In any case, he is switching the burden to you. Nobody needs to prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. He needs to be able to show that the executed were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If you raise this point, I bet he’ll say the fact the person was convicted shows they were guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This discounts bias, poor advocacy, etc. and assumes that the justice system is perfect. It’s a faulty argument, but it is used a lot. \*\* I am very much against the death penalty. That said, I’d like to point out that once a person has been convicted, the presumption of innocence has been overcome. The burden _does_ shift to the convict to show either that new evidence exists which raises a substantial probability of innocence – _and_ that this evidence is truly new, unknown and not reasonably knowable through exercise of due diligence before now. Or he needs to show that errors were committed during the trial that deprived him of a fair trial - evidence was admitted against him that was obtained illegally, or contrary to the rules of evidence… or that he was denied the assistance of competent counsel. IN other words, the burden _is_ on him; he’s lost the presumption of innocence. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/28 "2000-11-16T18:38:50Z")
\*\* Bricker\*\* re: presumption of innocence etc. I agree, in the court, the person who has been convicted has lost the “presumption of innocence”, and then must set about to prove the conviction was wrong. But that’s different from having to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt that they’re innocent” Consider: Fred’s been convicted of the rape and murder of a young woman. He proves, through DNA, that he was NOT the supplier of the semen found in the woman. While this might (and I emphasize MIGHT) be enough to overturn his conviction, it does NOT prove that he did NOT rape and murder the young woman, merely that he did not leave his semen at the scene. So, the charge to “prove beyond a reasonable doubt that some one is innocent of a crime” is often nearly impossible to achieve - You may be able to prove some one else was involved, or that the eye witnesses were wrong and mistook some one else, but that’s different. Look at it this way. you can sometimes prove you \*\*were \*\* somewhere(I WAS at the bank at that time) but proving the opposite is often VERY difficult (how do you prove you WEREN’T somewhere if you can’t prove where you were at the same time? ) ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/29 "2000-11-16T18:59:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > how about socrates > > I thought he was sentenced to commit suicide. (I know, plenty of WTF’s abound here). The way it was explained in my History class, he was so dedicated to his polis (“Athens made me what I am” or something like that) that he voluntarily took his own life, because the Athens court thought he should. > > \*\* Basically, you are right SPOOFE. He was convicted of sedition and given the choice of exile or suicide, and he chose the latter. I guess that to him, exile truly was a fate worse than death. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/30 "2000-11-16T19:13:30Z")
Is this just in the US? Because if we’re including Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Pol Pot’s Cambodia, there are millions. ---
**Author:** ![jwg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jwg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jwg)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/31 "2000-11-17T16:16:17Z")
Socrates: He was guilty. Read IF Stone - the Trial of Socrates. If you read Plato, you will see that Socrates (assuming Plato is accurate of course) proposed a philosopher king, someone who could search for the truth and would have the wisdom to rule. Many of the characters Plato has Socrates arguing with(and who Plato made to look like fools) had just risked their lives ovethrowing the Spartan imposed tyranny ruling Athens. They had restored democracy, and here was Socrates teaching the young that a select elite should rule. Of what they charged him - he really was guilty. His in your face and frankly superior attitude won him a few more enemies than it did friends. ---
**Author:** ![Feynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@Feynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feynn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/32 "2000-11-17T18:00:34Z")
I was involved in a similar debate quite some time ago and did quite a bit or research. A fairly significant number of innocent people have been executed in the U.S. I think it was 5% - 10% of all executions since the death penalty was re-introduced. The odds of you being executed rise sharply if you are poor, black, or live in Texas. It’s a great system isn’t it? I for one would hate to be the hypothetical single innocent individual out of the hundred. ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/33 "2000-11-18T00:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, what about good ol’ Sacco and Vanzetti? The most notorious case of railroaded execution in the whole 20th century. Oh, a bah upon you! I opened this thread and they were the first ones I thought of. I just skimmed most of this (looking for links) so I don’t know if he’s been mentioned, but if not…what about Dreyfus, IIRC, the French army man whose execution was largely based on anti-Semitism? And a case could be made for Eddie Slovik, as he was innocent of capital crimes like murder and rape, but was executed for desertion. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/34 "2000-11-18T00:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Feynn \* > A fairly significant number of innocent people have been executed in the U.S. I think it was 5% - 10% of all executions since the death penalty was re-introduced. > > \*\* Cite please? The cites I have seen of those who were innocent but executed were heavily wieghted in the 1950’s and before. Very few in the “modern period”. I do not know of any in the last couple of decades. Modern justice tends to find out they are innocent before they are executed- altho i will admit, far too often after they are convicted. I did see some numbers along yours- but they were of folks who had their death penalty reversed after conviction, but BEFORE execution. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/35 "2000-11-18T00:39:31Z")
From _The New York Genealogical and Biographical Record_, vol. 124, no. 3, July 1993, “Jonas Wood ‘Halifax’ of Huntington” by Matthew Wood(p. 146)- “Jesse Wood was hanged for murder in 1806 in Poughkepsie. The accounts say a shot was heard and a bystander came running. He found Jesse and two of his sons, one dead of a gunshot. Jesse said the two sons were were fighting and one killed the other. The son Joseph said said his father fired the shot. Jesse Wood was convicted on 4 November and hanged on 5 December. Many years later, the son confessed that he was the murderer.” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/36 "2000-11-18T00:50:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*The cites I have seen of those who were innocent but executed were heavily wieghted in the 1950’s and before. Very few in the “modern period”. I do not know of any in the last couple of decades. Modern justice tends to find out they are innocent before they are executed- altho i will admit, far too often after they are convicted. I did see some numbers along yours- but they were of folks who had their death penalty reversed after conviction, but BEFORE execution. \*\* Well, “modern justice” being what it is, please keep in mind that the 70 or whatever # we’re agreeing to, were under the “old rules”. the NEW, improved rules include limiting appeals, speeding up the execution process, “streamlining”. In my state, for example, they’ve just introduced legislation requiring appeals with NEW DNA results to be filed within ONE year of conviction. I (once again) heartily recommend that you read “Actual Innocence” by Barry Scheck, Peter Neufeld and Jim Dwyer. While we might molify ourselves with the thought that “gee, we’ve advanced Sooooo far since the bad old 20’s and 30’s when a minority male might get hanged for dating a white woman”, reading that book will bring new depth to the word terrifying. Think it couldn’t happen to you? think again. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2000, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/37 "2000-11-18T02:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > just skimmed most of this (looking for links) so I don’t know if he’s been mentioned, but if not…what about Dreyfus, IIRC, the French army man whose execution was largely based on anti-Semitism I don’t think Dreyfus was executed. He spent a long time on Devil’s Island, But I think he was eventually pardoned, and given his rank back. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2000, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/38 "2000-11-19T12:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Feynn \* > > A fairly significant number of innocent people have been executed in the U.S. I think it was 5% - 10% of all executions since the death penalty was re-introduced. > > > > \*\* > > Cite please? \*\* I would also like a cite for this. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2000, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/39 "2000-11-19T16:28:10Z")
There is also the issue of wether a person executed in times past would have been convicted of a lesser offence using more recent legislation. You might include deserters from the British Army for cowardice in WWI, in many if not most cases they had already served in the front line and were shell-shocked. Most court martials were a total travesty of justice. There have been a few in British legal history who were executed when either not guilty or guily of manslaughter . Ruth Ellis - suffered years of brutal treatment from her lover and was in the throes of post-natal depression when she stabbed her abusive partner. Then there was Timothy Evans who was executed for the murder of his baby daughter but recieved a free pardon in 1966 - Had the jury kown at the time of John Christie’s serial killer toll he would never have been convicted. try this site [http://www.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/wrong/wrong.html](http://www.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/wrong/wrong.html) > [@](#): > > Execution of the Innocent > As long as the death penalty is maintained, the risk of executing the innocent can never be eliminated. > 350 people convicted of capital crimes in the USA between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged, according to a 1987 study. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed. > > A US Congressional report by the House Subcommittee on Civil and Constitutional Rights in October 1993 listed 48 condemned men who had been freed from death row since 1972. The report blamed inadequate legal safeguards to prevent wrongful executions and listed numerous inherent flaws in the criminal justice system. The report concluded: “Judging by past experience, a substantial number of death row inmates are indeed innocent, and there is a high risk that some of them will be executed.” from this site > **[School of Chemistry](https://eps.leeds.ac.uk/chemistry)** > > We are one of the leading Chemistry schools in the UK with over 70 years’ experience in both teaching and research excellence. Our world-leading research, delivered via six research groups, cuts across the fields of inorganic, organic and physical... ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327/40 "2000-11-19T16:33:57Z")
Here is a better place and will be more relevant to the US [http://justice.policy.net/jpreport/index.html](http://justice.policy.net/jpreport/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocent-people-have-been-killed-via-the-death-penalty/41327.md?page=3)