# How many innocents would you kill to save the life of the person you love most? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165 "2012-06-05T15:57:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/61 "2012-06-06T01:13:01Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Depends. How would you separate the “final drop” of blood from all the pints that would be pouring out of their bleeding almost-corpses? We actually have to rip the hearts out of the chests of 12 people and squeeze the blood out into the mouth of the Beloved?? > > I would do anything for love, but I won’t do that. – Meatloaf. Sure, why not. The point is that in this case, there is no, “they knew what they were getting into when they took the job” bullshit. You must decide, who is more valuable, the 12 or the 1. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/62 "2012-06-06T01:14:56Z")
The 1. Fuck everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/63 "2012-06-06T01:23:49Z")
Missed you Skald! And fuck the mooks! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/64 "2012-06-06T01:29:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The 1. Fuck everybody else. And if doing so meant you’d go to prison for life for murder? ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/65 "2012-06-06T01:33:47Z")
I have long since established that I do not grok morality in the larger sense. While I occasionally have a small sense of responsibility and sometimes feel some small twinges of overarching goodwill towards humankind in general, they are insignificant compared to my white-hot feelings of loyalty and protectiveness towards people I know and care about. If you are someone I love, you are simply worth infinitely more to me than all other numbers of non-known/non-loved people on the planet. Sorry heroes, you’re going down. As I am not evil, they would die as quickly and painlessly as I am capable of, and had the original proposal not specifically removed my non-lethal options, I would attempt those first. Even without special tools, I would still likely go for subdual first, and only move to actual death once that was proven to be ineffective. That done with, if I am able to destroy evil asshole at the end of this and discover that the people I killed were misled, I would be very likely to subsequently use evil asshole’s assets to attempt to make the lives of the surviving families of the slain heroes a bit easier. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/66 "2012-06-06T02:09:21Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > And if doing so meant you’d go to prison for life for murder? We live for the One, we die for the One. 😛 Under the established circumstances, I’d walk. No jury would convict me, no prison could hold me. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/67 "2012-06-06T02:20:42Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > We live for the One, we die for the One. 😛 > > Under the established circumstances, I’d walk. No jury would convict me, no prison could hold me. For which hypothetical, mine or Skald’s? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/68 "2012-06-06T04:45:49Z")
Either. Climb highest mountain, swim deepest sea, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/69 "2012-06-06T17:36:37Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > And if doing so meant you’d go to prison for life for murder? If the cost of saving my wife, child, or baby sister from a torturous death was a life sentence in prison, I’d call it a bargain. Which is not to say that I’d murder innocents to save them, just that fear of a prison sentence would not be a consideration. > [@Lasciel](#): > > I have long since established that I do not grok morality in the larger sense. While I occasionally have a small sense of responsibility and sometimes feel some small twinges of overarching goodwill towards humankind in general, they are insignificant compared to my white-hot feelings of loyalty and protectiveness towards people I know and care about. > > If you are someone I love, you are simply worth infinitely more to me than all other numbers of non-known/non-loved people on the planet. > > Sorry heroes, you’re going down. As I am not evil, they would die as quickly and painlessly as I am capable of, I should hope so. Time’s a wasting; if you’re gonna fight and possibly kill these kills to save the one you love, you’d best take each one down as quickly as possible. If that means killing them, fine; if it means not killing them, fine. But going slower than necessary in order to kill them is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/70 "2012-06-06T18:13:06Z")
I’d go pretty far to save my sister’s life; if necessary, I expect I’d kill the guards. But there is an upper limit to the carnage I’d inflict on MicroExcellent’s behalf, even though I love her dearly. I’d have real problems with killing innocents who weren’t actively resisting my attempt to rescue my sister. And I don’t think I could kill children to effect a rescue. (For that matter, I don’t think my sister would want me to; if she were facing a choice between burning down an orphanage and letting me die, I sincerely hope she’d just let me kick off.) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/71 "2012-06-06T18:14:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Let me ask you a different question. Is your refusal to go in guns-a-blazing because the mooks in questions think they’re on the side of good and are simply deceived? That is, would you have the same reaction if they simply didn’t know what was going in the cell and thought you were just an intruder, and they’ve been hired to kill all intruders? Yes, that’s part of it. Your OP makes it clear that they are the “good guys,” and I’m taking it for granted that they have some kind of righteous authority to stop me. I think there’s a spectrum though: Navy Seals defending a US military installation? Not killing them US Marines guarding an Embassy or equivalent, like in the Bourne Identity? Not killing those guys either State police guarding a state government compound? Not killing them. But the OP doesn’t say that these guys are related with any government, so… Rent-a-cops hired to prevent trespassing at a corporate headquarters? Here’s where the tide starts to turn. If I walk in, I’m trespassing and they have a right to try and stop me. If they attack me because their boss told them I was up to no good, I’m defending myself, lethally if I have to. That’s going above and beyond their job description based on nothing more than the word of their boss. But if they manage to legally detain me for any reason, without violence, thus ending my mission to rescue my loved one, I can’t see murdering them just to continue on. Hired goons who know full well that there’s some shady shit going on in this compound? Well, they’re getting mowed down, with regrets. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/72 "2012-06-06T19:35:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Gracie. > > I think that bit about unnecessarily is irresponsible. You’ve only got a 15 minute cushion, remember? You got about a minute and a half to deal with each defender. No time for dicking around. Either go for the kill in every encounter, or skip ahead to the roaring rampage of revenge. Point gun obviously up and away with right hand. (Jazz hands!) Point to self, make baby rocking motion, point to building with left hand. 3 seconds, tops. Good guys form escort, child safe within minutes. See, they know they are 12 good guys, and that I’m only one person. They can hold my arms behind me and escort me in without any threat to the prisoner. They can leave nine guys outside in case I’m a decoy, and still feel in control of events once we reach the building. But if we want to pretend that the scenario truly precludes this, then there will be carnage. No hesitation at all. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/73 "2012-06-06T20:24:55Z")
> [@carlotta](#): > > You didn’t make that very hard, Skald…They’re not innocents, they’re soldiers. They put themselves in harms way. > > I was sure that the way would be guarded by elaborate Rube Goldberg baby killing devices, spring loaded with adorable big-eyed cherubs. > > In which case, none. I concur. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/74 "2012-06-07T00:22:02Z")
I know how to fight. I know methods of fighting that — in theory at least, since I’ve never actually killed anyone — are lethal. Trying to non-lethally “take out” anyone who is capable of tying their own shoelaces before a fight, much less someone highly trained is a losing proposition. You may not actually kill them, but you should never go into a fight thinking that you’re going to pull punches. You end up dead that way since it vastly loads the odds against you by partially crippling you psychologically. In other words, I go into this thinking that everyone dies. I’m sure as hell not going to die or sentence my wife or son to die because I wasn’t willing to fully commit. The option you’re missing is that if I’m such a badass, I could probably find Dr. Evil before the time limit. I have a feeling I can motivate\* him to deactivate the trap, dismiss the guards, or at least reveal the secret passageway (there is, of course, a secret passageway; he is an Evil Mastermind™ after all) and allow me to get through the maze more quickly or with less loss of life. \*Motivation may or may not entail the removal and forced feeding of various body parts. Results may vary. Ask your wronged hero/sociopath if Self-Anthropophagy is right for you! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/75 "2012-06-07T01:48:26Z")
Rats. I voted based on your misleading title. > [@Chronos](#): > > They’re not exactly innocents. In a line of work like that, they have a moral imperative to make sure that they’re not working for an evil psychopath. This. The hypothetical is an oxymoron. ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/76 "2012-06-07T03:15:09Z")
If I can disable them as quickly as kill them (a single shot to the knee cap, say), then that good. But if they gotta die, I do it, and I sleep soundly at night. Or I hope I would. In the hypothetical, the moral culpability for their deaths is the villain’s, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/77 "2012-06-07T03:23:30Z")
Dead Mooks everywhere. Skald, you’ve been missed! ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/78 "2012-06-07T22:39:21Z")
Qualification. I have no other recourse, and it is to protect my family. I kill who I have too. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/79 "2012-06-07T23:26:36Z")
Fuck those guys! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165/80 "2012-06-10T21:47:28Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > To bring my beloved back, I’d burn the world and use my soul for tinder. I am going to have to ask you not to quote Robert Jordan in my threads, sir. I am sure you could have find the appropriate sentiment in Tolkien or Heinlein or Smith or at least Whedon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-innocents-would-you-kill-to-save-the-life-of-the-person-you-love-most/624165.md?page=5)