# How many Iraqis have died because of the war & occupation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658 "2005-03-22T00:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/21 "2005-03-23T16:16:55Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Of course the use of the word “occupation” is a statement in and of itself. Of course the radical Sunnis see us as occupiers. We took the power away from them. But do the majority of Shiites and Kurds see us as occupiers? My guess is that they would use “liberators”…but that would convey a positive message instead of a negative one, so we’d better just sweep that little idea under the rug. If only we could get _Iraqis_ to “sweep that little idea under the rug” because of your guessing. “Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as “liberators” or “occupiers,” [71% of all respondents say “occupiers.”](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-iraq-findings.htm)” ```auto 14. Do you think now of Coalition forces mostly as occupiers or mostly as liberators? Total Baghdad Shi’ite areas Sunni areas Kurdish areas Occupiers 71% 82 80 80 1 Liberators 19% 4 7 10 97 Both 8% 13 11 7 2 ``` So, it appears that Iraqi, Sunni Arabs are, in fact more liikely to see us as 'liberators" than Iraqi, Shia Srabs. Go figure, your guess seems wrong. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/22 "2005-03-23T16:27:03Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > This is a more narrowly defined set - ‘reported killed by the occupation’ opposed to ‘as a result iof the occupation’. Thus those who died as a result of poor drinking water or from a lack of available healthcare are not included. Thats very true. You could attempt to extrapolate the possible projected civilian casualties from such things if there had been no war at all with some kind of sampling of possible deaths from 'lack of available health care 'or ‘poor drinking water’, ect…and in fact thats what Lancett did attempt to do. Unfortunately, from what I’ve seen, the pre-war civilian death rate varies wildly…and its difficult, to say the least, to determine deaths due to ‘poor drinking water’ or ‘available healthcare’ that are caused by the war in the middle of whats still a fairly hot war zone…and not by other factors. Part of the reason Lancett’s figures vary so wildly. I find it easier to follow IBC’s methodology to get a rough idea of civilians directly killed myself, and I like the fact that they cross check death certificates and verify their findings reasonable well. > [@PatriotX](#): > > Second IBC merely measures civilian deaths. Combatants’ deaths are not a part of their total. You are quite correct. I realized my mistake after I posted it (i.e. that the OP wanted ALL casualties, civilian and military), but as the thread didn’t really seem to be going anywhere I didn’t bother to correct. FWIW I’ve seen estimates running from between 10,000-40,000 direct military deaths…but these estimates are even more speculative than the civilan casualty ones (in fact, I suspect that there is a huge amount of cross over between the two figures…civilians counted as ‘military deaths’ and vice versa). > [@PatriotX](#): > > Did they generate some sort of a probability curve? Are some totals morel likely than others? Certainly they did. Thats the widely used ‘100,000’ figure bandied about (actually I think it was something like 98,000). I was of course attempting to make a joke there. I don’t completely disreguard Lancett btw…I think its quite informative and even useful. Its the way its used I object too, as if it were proven fact…and used that way for political reasons of course to beat up on the pro-war types. To my mind the IBC numbers are bad enough, and they are cross checked for accuracy. -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/23 "2005-03-23T16:27:09Z")
…[nearly nine out of 10 Iraqis see US forces as occupiers](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1112615.htm) rather than liberators or peacekeepers, the British newspaper The Financial Times has reported. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/24 "2005-03-23T16:31:54Z")
The poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority… [Ninety-two percent of the Iraqis said they considered coalition troops occupiers,](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223494/) while just 2 percent called them liberators. How 'bout instead that we just sweep that little “liberator” idea under the rug. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/25 "2005-03-23T18:00:17Z")
I think a better question would be, how many is _too many_ for so many of you to stop being apologists for this monstrosity? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/26 "2005-03-23T19:00:10Z")
If only Saddam Hussein were still in power . . . filling mass graves . . . making war on his neighbors . . . (Sigh) Those were the days . . . ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/27 "2005-03-23T19:42:31Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I think a better question would be, how many is too many for so many of you to stop being apologists for this monstrosity? It’s like eating peanuts - hard to stop after the first fifteen thousand or so. 😉 But I think we are comparing apples and oranges. Whatever proportion of innocent civilians who were killed by Allied troops - certainly a tragedy. But those who were killed by the insurgents are a different matter. Those who were killed fighting on behalf of the Saddam regime, or on behalf of Islamo-fascism - not a tragedy. It’s like occupied France during WWII. Those killed by the Allies are sad and tragic. Those killed by the Nazis, almost equally so. Those who died for Vichy, or who cooperated with the Nazis - fuck 'em. YMMV, obviously. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/28 "2005-03-23T19:48:23Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > If only Saddam Hussein were still in power . . . filling mass graves . . . making war on his neighbors . . . (Sigh) Those were the days . . . ☹ The US, marginally better than Saddam was 15 years ago. Congrats! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/29 "2005-03-23T20:01:23Z")
Mr Orwell sends his regards, **Shodan** : [**The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.**](http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_orwell.html) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/30 "2005-03-23T20:15:11Z")
**RedFury** , whence comes your user name? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/31 "2005-03-23T20:22:04Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > If only Saddam Hussein were still in power . . . filling mass graves . . . making war on his neighbors . . . (Sigh) Those were the days . . . ☹ Well, he’s not. So you’ll just have to be satisfied with increasing the death rate through invasion and occupation. Sorry it’s not up to your standards, but hey: you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had. So make do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/32 "2005-03-23T20:56:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Mr Orwell sends his regards, **Shodan** : > > [**The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.**](http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_orwell.html) Or perhaps another from the same page: > [@](#): > > Liberal: a power worshipper without power. Fortunately, your side is without power in Iraq at the present moment. So is Saddam’s side. I don’t say it is the same side, but you are both making the same complaints. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/33 "2005-03-23T22:43:55Z")
Certainly you won’t say it, not when implying will work just as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/34 "2005-03-24T02:12:42Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > The poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority… > [Ninety-two percent of the Iraqis said they considered coalition troops occupiers,](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223494/) while just 2 percent called them liberators. > > How 'bout instead that we just sweep that little “liberator” idea under the rug. Japan considered the US occupiers. Point being? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/35 "2005-03-24T02:26:37Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Japan considered the US occupiers. Point being? …point being…he was refuting **Evil One’s** point, made in this post: > [@](#): > > Of course the use of the word “occupation” is a statement in and of itself. Of course the radical Sunnis see us as occupiers. We took the power away from them. But do the majority of Shiites and Kurds see us as occupiers? My guess is that they would use “liberators”…but that would convey a positive message instead of a negative one, so we’d better just sweep that little idea under the rug. > > Regarding kill ratio, it appears to hover between 20 and 25 to one. …it appears that **Evil One’s** assertion that the majority of Shiites and Kurds see the US as “occupiers” and not “liberators” from **PatriotX’s** citations, are incorrect, do you not agree? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/36 "2005-03-24T03:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > …it appears that Evil One’s assertion that the majority of Shiites and Kurds see the US as “occupiers” and not “liberators” from PatriotX’s citations, are incorrect, do you not agree? Nope. In the Kurds case, double no, the Shia? Meh, probably. But any thoughts of occupation are overidden by the fact we’ve rid them of Baa’thist oppression. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/37 "2005-03-24T04:35:51Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But any thoughts of occupation are overidden by the fact we’ve rid them of Baa’thist oppression. Syrians, take note! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/38 "2005-03-24T05:18:45Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > If only Saddam Hussein were still in power . . . filling mass graves . . . making war on his neighbors . . . (Sigh) Those were the days . . . ☹ Ahhh. The Reagan years. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/39 "2005-03-24T05:20:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Japan considered the US occupiers. Point being? For a hint, read post #20 and then read post #21. I’ll give you more hints if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658/40 "2005-03-24T07:04:58Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > **RedFury** , whence comes your user name? From the heart of the [Kremlin](http://www.furiaroja.com/), of course. Should I be on the lookout for black choppers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-iraqis-have-died-because-of-the-war-occupation/295658.md?page=3)