# How many men have really been \*cancelled\* by #metoo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556 "2023-09-03T20:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/21 "2023-09-03T23:04:47Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Spacey’s victims, AFAIK, were all boys Not children, you know. At least one was a teenager of 14; many others were adults. I draw attention to this, not to defend Spacey’s actions, which I don’t, but to object to the term “boys”, which implies pedophilia, a very inaccurate stereotype of gay men, especially gay men who are sexually aggressive (or worse). ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/22 "2023-09-04T00:49:09Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Matt Lauer, he of the desk-mounted button that locked his office door remotely to turn the room into a rape trap, has been pretty effectively ostracized. You can add Lauer’s CBS morning show counterpart, [Charlie Rose](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/eight-women-say-charlie-rose-sexually-harassed-them--with-nudity-groping-and-lewd-calls/2017/11/20/9b168de8-caec-11e7-8321-481fd63f174d_story.html), and that embodiment of small-town virtues, [Garrison Keillor](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/garrison-keillor-talks-about-metoo-and-a-return-to-lake-wobegon/). ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/23 "2023-09-04T02:15:25Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I think there are two incorrect assumptions here (I base this on my experience in the business world, which is admittedly fairly narrow, and all of it in California and Oregon). One is that it is believable that a man was fired\* on the basis of a she-said/he-said disagreement about sexual harassment. The companies that I have worked for were very careful and thorough in their investigations of these kinds of cases, and didn’t want to be liable for a wrongful firing suit. We saw an uptick in women coming to HR for minor instances of sexual harassment that they probably wouldn’t have reported prior to #metoo. None of these minor issues resulted in sanctions against the employee let alone termination of employment. Like you, my company tends to be very careful and thoroughly investigate harassment claims because sanctioning an employee. Though the fastest one I was ever involved with was one were we terminated employment the day after the complaint was made. But we had multiple employees talk about inappropriate comments and physical contact involving an employee who had been warned about his comments a year earlier. I don’t believe many men have been unfairly cancelled by #metoo. In my limited experience, the vast majority of sexual harassment claims are made in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/24 "2023-09-04T02:50:43Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t believe many men have been unfairly cancelled by #metoo. In my limited experience, the vast majority of sexual harassment claims are made in good faith. I’m very glad to hear that, and what **Roderick** said. I just hear it so much, that _one_ person saying _one_ thing can completely derail a career/life. And I know it can’t be that simple. Thank you for putting my mind at ease. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/25 "2023-09-04T02:57:30Z")
Louis CK’s schtick was being a gross POS. The humor in it was that it was assumed we all thought it was gross and things we don’t do. I don’t recall him trying to destroy careers. He was apologizing to women before the story really broke. However, he apparently was so gross so often that he kept getting his apologies wrong; too many times to keep track of. He definitely lost work, but he had a fairly popular special after the fact. Wasn’t a huge HBO special, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/26 "2023-09-04T09:13:10Z")
I can think of a couple more that might be relevant here. Musician and radio host **Jian Ghomeshi** was fired by the CBC over allegations of sexual assault by an ex-girlfriend. He was later tried on five counts from three separate accusers. He was acquitted, at least in part due to inconsistencies in the testimony of his accusers. One other charge against him was withdrawn. This was in 2014-2016, which predates the #metoo movement. Actor and comedian **Aziz Ansari** was accused in an online article of sexual misconduct in 2018. It generated bad publicity at the time, but (from what I can tell, at least) he continues to work. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/27 "2023-09-04T12:49:47Z")
Does anybody else remember how **Chris Matthews** just dropped out of sight once the #metoo movement started to gain momentum? I think he cancelled himself over fears of what would come out. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > Roger Ailes…Jeffrey Epstein Do these men count? They are both dead. That’s more cancelling than #metoo was referring to. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Louis CK’s schtick was being a gross POS. I follow comedy pages on Instagram. **Louis CK** shows up from time to time, with contemporary material. He took a step back, but he’s not been cancelled. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/28 "2023-09-04T13:01:00Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Louis CK’s schtick was being a gross POS. The humor in it was that it was assumed we all thought it was gross and things we don’t do. Some of his comedy shows had some of that element, but his TV show that ran for 5 seasons was very different. Basically playing himself as a struggling comic dad who was a little rough and flawed but usually did the right thing (oh, and in some episodes, and in another show, suggest he had a bit of a masturbation thing that was actually no big deal). > [@](#): > > I don’t recall him trying to destroy careers. He was apologizing to women before the story really broke. Before he started apologizing to get the women quiet, he was on TV publicly dismissing them and calling them liars. His manager Dave Becky was one of the more influential managers in Hollywood, and he repeatedly asked them to keep the story quiet. It’s hard to separate cause from effect but they kept getting pulled from Becky-connected projects and eventually stopped trying. They received death threats and abuse. All because, when the women came forward, they chose not to press charges. This allowed Louis & Dave Becky to let them them twist in the wind for years while Louis’s own career skyrocketed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/29 "2023-09-04T13:01:31Z")
It was before it was called #MeToo, but I think that Al Franken is a good fit for this. He never got criminally charged, but he lost his position as Senator, along with what many believed was a pretty good shot at the White House, over complaints of sexual misconduct with women. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/30 "2023-09-04T14:09:28Z")
Okay, I’m better. I was just getting overwhelmed with the same over-and-over discussions on social media. Mostly men: “One accusation ruins your life!” Mostly women: “Are you kidding? I work with or for someone who **constantly** acts inappropriately, and anyone who complains is told that’s just how he is, he’s too valuable to fire or move, and anyone who doesn’t like it is free to leave.” MM: “Well, I have to watch everything I say! I’m being controlled like a child!” MW: “If you’re not in the habit of saying or doing suggestive or otherwise inappropriate things, you’ve got nothing to worry about. If you **are** in that habit, STOP.” MM: “For your information, a man close to me had a false accusation made against him. Luckily, security cameras/eye- or earwitnesses/being in a different location when it supposedly happened, plus the accuser admitting s/he made it up for reasons of hir own, proved his innocence. He never faced charges, and he’s still working at the same place, but everybody feels sooooo bad for him. And that’s how false accusations ruin a life.” MW: “If he’s still working there and everybody believes him, how is his life ruined? Also, did you ever consider that maybe he really did do it?” MM: “Bitches be lyin’!!!” So it’s a relief to hear both: that verifiable charges really can stick, _and_ that thorough investigations are made to be sure that charges _are_ verifiable. * * * Also, what I meant about Spacey…Of course I don’t think he’s any less guilty than those other guys. But ISTM, and by all means correct me if I’m wrong, that with, for instance Cosby, the initial response was, “Well, that’s bad, but let’s see what else turns up…Oh my, that IS bad. _All_ those women? I’m convinced.” But with KS, again my perception, but wasn’t it just the first accusation, **from a male** , and he was off House of Cards, he was off the J. Paul Getty movie, he was done? No waiting to “see what else turned up”? And if so, **I can’t help thinking that homophobia fueled that response**. He didn’t get the benefit of the doubt that all those straight guys got. I’m not saying he deserved benefit of the doubt. But it seems that a lot of other guys, straight guys who targeted adult women, _did_ get that benefit, who didn’t deserve it either. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/31 "2023-09-04T15:40:42Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > MW: “If he’s still working there and everybody believes him, how is his life ruined? Also, did you ever consider that maybe he really did do it?” This is the one that gets me. Guy gets accused of something, turns out it’s not that clear-cut, he suffers bad press for a few weeks and then resumes his normal career. “OMG dude was cancelled for life.” No, he did something borderline, did a partial apology, received borderline consequences, and went back to normal. That’s not “canceled.” I can’t think of anyone whose career was point-blank ended over one allegation. Al Franken lost his Senate seat over a pattern of allegations, with more than one documented by a creepy photo. I see that as a special one-time deal where Democrats hoped that their moral self-policing in the midst of #metoo would create a compelling contrast between them and Republicans. It turns out that they’d already recruited all the voters who might be persuaded by that maneuver, and the median voter wasn’t very interested, so I expect it will be quite a while before anyone tries the move of throwing a Senator under the bus again. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/32 "2023-09-04T18:07:55Z")
One thing I’ve noticed is that people who get fired for a pattern of behavior–involving sexual conduct or not–frequently don’t really understand that, or pretend not to. So they got fired for “being late to work one time” when they’d been written up for it half a dozen times, or whatever. It’s like every time they get written up, or even talked to, they think the talking to was the punishment and they served their time and now the slate is clean. It’s really bizarre. Another issue is whether or not an investigation is seen an inherently punitive. There is a school of thought that says it is–that it’s an injustice to have to defend yourself against an accusation, and that the system shouldn’t allow for that. It’s like they think that the accuser should have to have additional proof before making the accusation, and only when there is corroboration should anyone else get involved to investigate. The other school of thought is just that shit happens, much in the same way that innocent things can trigger an investigation from CPS–if they only investigated the children they could be sure were being abused, most abuse would go unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/33 "2023-09-04T18:42:00Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > One thing I’ve noticed is that people who get fired for a pattern of behavior–involving sexual conduct or not–frequently don’t really understand that, or pretend not to. So they got fired for “being late to work one time” when they’d been written up for it half a dozen times, or whatever. It’s like every time they get written up, or even talked to, they think the talking to was the punishment and they served their time and now the slate is clean. It’s really bizarre. I am in agreement here. I’ve seen employees who had multiple warnings on their file for many different unrelated policy violations who were surprised, or at least feigned surprise, when they were finally terminated. No single violation of theirs was bad enough to terminate, but they just kept racking up the warnings month after month. I felt a little bad when I recommended an employee receive a warning for violating our parking policy, he used the extrance ramp as an exit, and that was the final straw that broke the camel’s back. I didn’t realize he had a slew of warnings for unrelated issues that were current and we just decided to terminate instead of giving him another warning. He was shocked to be fired over a parking violation. > [@MandaJo](#): > > The other school of thought is just that shit happens, much in the same way that innocent things can trigger an investigation from CPS–if they only investigated the children they could be sure were being abused, most abuse would go unnoticed. And I guess my school of thought is that if I don’t investigate I open the company up to litigation. i.e. I wouldn’t be doing my job. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/34 "2023-09-04T18:50:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I’ve seen employees who had multiple warnings on their file for many different unrelated policy violations who were surprised, or at least feigned surprise, when they were finally terminated. It’s like “I can’t believe I got fired for X, I’ve done tons of things worse than X and didn’t get fired! How unfair!” The logic must be that anytime you do something and don’t get fired, you’ve set a new bar for things that can lead to termination. Like, I told obscene jokes and just got a talking to, so why did they fire me the next week for calling a co-worker a “hot mama”? That’s nowhere near as bad as the jokes! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/35 "2023-09-04T18:56:56Z")
Joss Whedon has been the victim of 'canceling" attacks. Basically, it seems he can be pretty mean as a director at times is the only solid thing. He even made start record lines “they didnt like”. I just want to point out that the stars rarely get creative control, it is the directors job to tell them to say the lines the writer wrote and in a way the directors think is best. That doesnt stop innuendos. There is even 7 longish paragraphs about this on his wiki page. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/36 "2023-09-04T19:07:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > One thing I’ve noticed is that people who get fired for a pattern of behavior–involving sexual conduct or not–frequently don’t really understand that, or pretend not to. So they got fired for “being late to work one time” when they’d been written up for it half a dozen times, or whatever. It’s like every time they get written up, or even talked to, they think the talking to was the punishment and they served their time and now the slate is clean. It’s really bizarre. In some cases, an accusation of harassment leads to an investigation that uncovers other things - like fraud, plagiarism, etc. When the person is fired, it’s convenient for him to pin the firing on the accusation, but that may not have been the actual cause. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/37 "2023-09-04T19:12:33Z")
There was a little bit more to the Franken case than most people realize. The allegations against Franken were concurrent with some truly horrid allegations against John Conyers, an African American Congressman from Michigan. The Democrats realized that they couldn’t make the black guy quit and let the white guy stay, so they both had to go. One unfortunate by-product of all that was that his constituents were unrepresented for over a year, I think it was, because (Republican) Governor Rick Snyder wouldn’t schedule a special election to fill his seat. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/38 "2023-09-04T19:30:13Z")
Mark Halperin works for NewsMax now, but he used to be allowed on MSNBC. Chris Matthews is making appearances again. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/39 "2023-09-04T19:33:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Joss Whedon has been the victim of 'canceling" attacks. Basically, it seems he can be pretty mean as a director at times is the only solid thing. He even made start record lines “they didnt like”. I just want to point out that the stars rarely get creative control, it is the directors job to tell them to say the lines the writer wrote and in a way the directors think is best. > > That doesnt stop innuendos. > > There is even 7 longish paragraphs about this on his wiki page. This isn’t “being cancelled” in any sense of the word. His works are still published and praised, people still associate with him, he could work if he cared to (he’s retirement age). Yet somehow he sees himself a victim, because apparently women aren’t supposed to talk about when big fancy directors act like hurtful entitled jerks. Joss Whedon isn’t _remotely_ close to being canceled. He’s just another guy who doesn’t like people talking about who he is. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556/40 "2023-09-04T19:46:05Z")
**Moderating:** I’m going to head this off pre-emptively. ### This is not the thread for a Joss Whedon Debate. There is one already for it. I will link to it shortly. [The Undoing of Joss Whedon - anyone else read this?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-undoing-of-joss-whedon-anyone-else-read-this/957940) * * * * * * I want to make it clear, the 2 posters did nothing wrong. Just preventing a hijack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-men-have-really-been-cancelled-by-metoo/989556.md?page=3)