I should also point out that the French guns will likely bounce off the body armor of the modern troops.
Yes, but that big .75 cal will really hurt.
I read that as “cannons” and now I’m picturing an Imperial Space Marine taking a direct solid shot right in the chest from an 8 pounder. I wonder what the AP rating on a Napoleonic cannon was.
Sorry I should have said small-arms.
You could pile up the ammo, sure. Again, I’m unsure why you think they would have to kill all 70K French to fend them off. As to defined victory, I didn’t really set any conditions on what defines that. Basically, it was a thought exercise on how a modern force would fair against the French attack on Waterloo. ‘Fending them off’, to me simplly means making them retreat…preferably back to France. That’s a win.
You could equally ask what the motivation would be for any modern troops from any country to actually fight the French would be. I mean, if we are talking American troops, why would they give a shit about Napoleon marching by or the lack now of the allied armies? Or where those armies are now (maybe it’s a Ring of Fire situation and they are suddenly at a base in Texas and wondering where the French are and what all that black road stuff is :p). It’s just a thought experiment.
Not as much as a 7.62 from a ak-47. The size will actually make it easier for the armor to spread the impact out.
I’m not so sure about musket fire “bouncing off” modern armor. I sure as shit wouldn’t volunteer to test that out.
A 7.62x39mm round (typical round fired by an AK-47), has a mass of 0.008kg and a velocity of 715 m/sec. The formula for kinetic energy in joules is 1/2mv^2. So:
1/2 * 0.008 * 715^2 = ~2045 joules of kinetic energy.
A .69 caliber musket ball weighing 412 grains, fired with 110 grains of powder (cursory internet research suggests this is a reasonable approximation) fires at around 457 m/sec.
412 grains is 0.0266kg, so plugging in the formula:
1/2 * 0.026 * 457^2 = 2715 or so joules of kinetic energy.
That’s significantly more than the .223 frequently fired from an AR-15, and way more than even the more powerful pistol rounds like the 357 Magnum, 9mm etc. It isn’t as much as a 30-06 rifle or a 12 gauge buckshot.
Now, much like 00 buck, the ballistic profile of a musket ball is less than ideal, so its velocity degrades more quickly as it hits air resistance, and it also is moving slow (.223 or 7.62 move at 975 m/sec and 715 m/sec respectively) but at the sort of ranges where 19th century musketeers actually would’ve fired/expected musket to be effective I wouldn’t want to be shot by one of those. Plus, a musket ball going through the leg is devastating and there’s no armor there.
I’d be more scared of the cannon. I mean that in a literal sense. The reason being ironic: because they (and muskets for that matter) fired much slower rounds than modern weapons do, so you could actually see the cannonballs whizzing your way.
Yeah, the composition of the musket ball and its size definitely make it less mean than a 7.62 or .223 round, but with the amount of kinetic energy involved I’d be loathe to willingly subject myself to it, I don’t doubt there’d be failures to stop some of these rounds and especially mind that soldiers don’t wear body armor over their entire body, and getting hit anywhere by the musket ball is probably going to take you out of the fight.
Yeah, I wouldn’t want to test it out. However, I think it would bounce off the armor if they were using the ceramic inserts (still hurt like hell), though as you noted a hit anywhere not in the chest would ruin your day (and probably even a hit to the chest). The upside is that our modern guys wouldn’t be standing up in a firing line shoulder to shoulder, so it’s probably going to be a pretty low probability hit that is going to take them out. But with 10’s of thousands of guys shooting, even from extreme ranges (for them), chances are someone is going to get hurt or killed on the modern side.
Way too fast on the musket. More like *120 m/s (390 ft/s) to 370 m/s (1,200 ft/s) *
*
A Brown Bess loaded with 80 grains of Fg powder and a .69 caliber ball (494 grain) has a MV of 809 fps & ME of 718 (fpe). At 100 yards it’s 680 fps and ME 507.
From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook a Brown Bess with using FFg powder and shooting a 545 grain .715" ball produces the following:
W/20 grs of powder, MV 341 with ME of 141 fps.
W/30 grs, MV 455 w/ME 250 fps.
W/40 grs, MV 569 w/ME 391 fps.
W/50 grs, MV 662 w/ME 530 fps. Energy @ 100 is 410 fps.
W/60 grs, MV 754 w/ME 687 fps. Energy @ 100 is 531 fps.
W/70 grs, MV 817 w/ME 807 fps. Energy @ 100 is 616 fps.
W/80 grs, MV 879 w/ME 934 fps. Energy @ 100 is 700 fps.
W/90 grs, MV 943 w/ME 1075 fps. Energy @ 100 is 782 fps.
W/100 grs, MV 1006 w/ME 1223 fps. Ener. @ 100 is 859 fps. *
I wasn’t saying that the body armor would provide absolute protection rather it would be a force multiplier each French round that manages to, by sheer dumb luck, actually hit them has a significantly lower chance of causing damage whereas each round that hits a French soldier would take them out of the battle.
Also although the kinetic energy of the musket round may be significant, the size of the round would spread that around to give the armor more of a chance to absorb. I’m definitely talking them wearing the ceramic inserts.
It would be a golden BB that would take a few of them out. I definitely see it as pretty improbable that any of the French musket fire would hit any of the modern soldiers, who would be in cover most likely and firing on the French from a range they couldn’t hope to reply with. Slightly more likely would be hit by French artillery. Again, I’m thinking it would be low probability. Maybe a bit more probable would be killed or wounded by French cavalry, though even there I think it would be pretty low probability…but probably the best chance the French would have to actually hurt the modern troops, though at a huge cost to them.
And, yeah, body armor would certainly help and be a force multiplier, especially at the ranges the French would actually be firing at. Most of the speeds discussed by others are muzzle velocity, and would fall off pretty quickly at the ranges the modern troops would be engaging at, unless they walked into a French ambush or some skirmishers who were able to get in close (and modern troops have access to a variety of man-portable drones that, at least in my own scenario they would have access to, which would mitigate a lot of the stumbling into an ambush or being hit by sneaky skirmishers). At the ranges I’m thinking the modern guys would be engaging I’m pretty sure even the kevlar helmets would provide some decent protection from French musket fire. It would take a very unlucky hit to some exposed and critical body part to take out a modern soldier if they were smart and fought smart, at least that’s how I envision it.
I got 1500 fps from a .69 412gr ball w/110gr poweder from a “High Road” gun forum post referencing the Dixie Gunworks catalog. I’m not 100% sure how much I trust the message boards but figured they got it probably within the same ballpark if not pinpoint.
I’d still say the KE even from the lower numbers is pretty bad, still much higher than strong handgun rounds and not far below modern rifle rounds.
A musket ball will have similar problems in penetrating the best modern body armor as 00 buck (which also has a ton of KE but has trouble with armor). Armor would definitely be effective–and importantly the modern forces would have it and the French have nothing that can come close to stopping modern rounds other than taking cover behind things like rocks/earth/trees etc.
But at the energy we’re talking I’d suspect a first round to the torso breaks the ceramic plate (which significantly decreases its protective power.) You couldn’t pay me to voluntarily get shot by one wearing interceptor w/a plate in, it’d be extremely painful and potentially debilitating.
The body armor without the plates will stop a 9mm the plates add on top of that rate it to stop a 7.62 rifle round. Probably more, that’s just what it’s rated for.
More to the point those cannon everyone keeps bring up are exploding shells, the body armor would be highly effective against the shrapnel.
No, they are not, they are round or canister or grape shot.
Canister- body armor very effective. Round shot- hole right thru the armor, you, the guy behind you…
It might be worth considering the option of not defending the Mont St. Jean ridge/Ohain road position at all and falling back into the Forest of Soignes. It’s an argument in hindsight, but Napoleon seems to have considered this a significant obstacle, which was forcing Wellington to stand where he did. (It wasn’t and Wellington knew it.) That would seem to open up the possibility of a devastating ambush on the French vanguard, who’ve been ordered to advance in column up the single road into the forest beyond the village of Waterloo itself. Difficult for Napoleon to then effectively bring either his artillery or his cavalry to bear. You’ve then also got the cover to rain down merry hell on the resulting rout.
I would only take two - one to hold the slingshot and the other to collect the white flags.
Just kidding, I love France.