# How many more attacks before the West has to consider the previously unthinkable? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950 "2016-07-15T02:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/281 "2016-07-20T06:16:33Z")
Oh, neat, anybody who ever reads Paul’s letters in church is not a Christian. OK fellas, let’s all go home, last one please switch off the lights… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/282 "2016-07-20T06:18:39Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Are you really going to rely on a “No True Scotsman” argument? This thread is already chock full of weak arguments without tossing in a flagrant error like that. I would wager that \*devout \*Christians, who aren’t just social members of the church but who take theology seriously and believe they have to actually follow Yahweh’s commandments or risk eternal damnation, are pretty consistent in seeing Islam, Mormonism, or even Catholicism (in that order) as heresy at the least. I am an atheist who has read the Bible pretty extensively, and frankly the only “Christians” who could possibly take all those faiths as being essentially compatible are mushy-headed namby-pambies who aren’t taking almost any of the Scripture seriously–to the point that you have to wonder why they bother. Is it for the church basement potlucks or what? You can get those at a Unitarian church without having to pretend you believe in a theological doctrine that you clearly don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/283 "2016-07-20T06:50:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Apparently we’re not speaking the same language, because…back atcha. Of course we’re not speaking the same language. I’m using English with logic included. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > So by that logic, all polytheists worship the same pantheon of gods? That’s not an apt (or even accurate) description of the other poster’s assertion. The polytheists who worship the Norse deities long ago did not worship the same deities as the Hindu polytheists, nor did those polytheists assert they were doing so. Christians assert (except for certain small sects which, IIUC, are no longer extant) that their deity is that of Judaism; Muslims assert that their deity is the same deity worshiped by both Jews and Christians. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > They are quite obviously right to make that claim! And believe me, there is not much I agree with most Baptists about. They are quit obviously incorrect to make such a claim. Latter-day Saints assert that the deity they worship is that explained in the Old and New Testaments, meaning that the LDS are Christians. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Probably just as many of them claim that Catholics aren’t Christians either. No doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/284 "2016-07-20T07:39:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would wager that \*devout \*Christians, who aren’t just social members of the church but who take theology seriously and believe they have to actually follow Yahweh’s commandments or risk eternal damnation, are pretty consistent in seeing Islam, Mormonism, or even Catholicism (in that order) as heresy at the least. You do realize “heresy” is a Catholic concept, right ? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/285 "2016-07-20T07:40:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s not an apt (or even accurate) description of the other poster’s assertion. The polytheists who worship the Norse deities long ago did not worship the same deities as the Hindu polytheists, nor did those polytheists assert they were doing so. Christians assert (except for certain small sects which, IIUC, are no longer extant) that their deity is that of Judaism; Muslims assert that their deity is the same deity worshiped by both Jews and Christians. > > They are quit obviously incorrect to make such a claim. Latter-day Saints assert that the deity they worship is that explained in the Old and New Testaments, meaning that the LDS are Christians. Your framework, which (again) I doubt would be accepted by many who are devoutly religious, quite explicitly declares that anyone starting a new religion (sect, cult, whatever you want to call it) has the prerogative to tell established orders that they must accept them as members of the true faith, like it or not. This is reminding me of some of our debates about gender, and I suspect you were on this side there too. The difference being that if so, you had a far, far better case when it came to that subject! So if I start a sarcastic “Flying Spaghetti Monster” type deal, and assert that it’s Christian, other Christians just have to accept that? :rolleyes: This completely ignores that the writers of the Bible, whom devout Christians believe to be inspired by God, very specifically warn about and preach against exactly this kind of error in being all loosey-goosey about what doctrines you accept. It would take forever to cite all the examples, so here are just a few: **1 John 2** > [@](#): > > Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the Father and the Son. 23 **2 Corinthians 11** (this one’s ironic, as noted upthread, but apt since it is widely accepted as canonical) > [@](#): > > But I am afraid that just as the serpent deceived Eve by his treachery, your minds may be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus different from the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the one you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough![snip] And what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may eliminate any opportunity for those who want a chance to be regarded as our equals in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will correspond to their actions. \*\*2 Peter 2 \*\* > [@](#): > > But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies… **Deuteronomy 13** (my favorite!) > [@](#): > > 12 Suppose you should hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you as a place to live, that 13 some evil people have departed from among you to entice the inhabitants of their cities, saying, “Let’s go and serve other gods” (whom you have not known before). 14 You must investigate thoroughly and inquire carefully. If it is indeed true that such a disgraceful thing is being done among you, 15 you must by all means slaughter the inhabitants of that city with the sword; annihilate with the sword everyone in it, as well as the livestock. 16 You must gather all of its plunder into the middle of the plaza and burn the city and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It will be an abandoned ruin forever—it must never be rebuilt again. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/286 "2016-07-20T07:46:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You do realize “heresy” is a Catholic concept, right ? I’m familiar with the Inquisition (nobody expects it!), but it has a broader meaning. Google defines it simply as: > [@](#): > > belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/287 "2016-07-20T07:58:31Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > That said, what the holy fuck does it matter? It’s an asinine distinction that makes not one whit of difference to the original point, which was itself asinine to begin with. Hey, I’m a comic book fan. Obsessing about the continuity of fictional characters is what I’m all about. So yeah, the Abrahamic God is the same one for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. That’s Canon. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/288 "2016-07-20T08:21:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Your framework, which (again) I doubt would be accepted by many who are devoutly religious, quite explicitly declares that anyone starting a new religion (sect, cult, whatever you want to call it) has the prerogative to tell established orders that they must accept them as members of the true faith, like it or not. I’m genuinely curious as to from where you pulled that interpretation of what I posted. > [@](#): > > This is reminding me of some of our debates about gender, and I suspect you were on this side there too. The difference being that if so, you had a far, far better case when it came to that subject! What on Earth are you talking about? > [@](#): > > So if I start a sarcastic “Flying Spaghetti Monster” type deal, and assert that it’s Christian, other Christians just have to accept that? :rolleyes: Well, if you start a FSM religion in which said FSM happens to be the Christ of the New Testament, albeit with additional deeds to his credit attested by whatever scripture your new FSM faith happens to introduce, then, yes, that would be Christian. As it is, the current folks who started up the FSM group, although it is sarcastic, do not happen to have the FSM being Jesus Christ. Your inability to recognize the difference does not make the difference go away. I snipped the rest of your malarkey as it was a tangent you went on based on your own fantasy of what I posted, not on what I actually posted. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/289 "2016-07-20T08:43:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, if you start a FSM religion in which said FSM happens to be the Christ of the New Testament, albeit with additional deeds to his credit attested by whatever scripture your new FSM faith happens to introduce, then, yes, that would be Christian. 😕 That’s just absurd. Almost not worth addressing, but since so many of you seem to swallow this whole, I’ll take one more stab at it (or who knows, there may be more as I have been known to be intemperate from time to time). **Announcing my new religion.** It’s called The Church of Jesus Christ of Even Latterer Day Saints, as revealed to Prophet SlackerInc by these brand new Seer Stones I found (no, you can’t see them). Some of the new revelations include: –Everyone has to tithe directly to me. If you don’t, it’s the lake of fire for you. –Mary wasn’t a virgin. In fact, she was the town whore. –Jesus was fond of killing newborn babies and scooping out their brains to spread on crackers like pate. There you go. This is obviously a Christian religion, so you have to consider me a good Christian. You’re a bigot if you don’t! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/290 "2016-07-20T09:29:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m familiar with the Inquisition (nobody expects it!), but it has a broader meaning. Google defines it simply as: Heresy is not limited to the Inquisition (and in turn, the Inquisition didn’t deal exclusively in straightening heretics). To have heresy, you need to first have an authoritative doctrinal canon, an institution that defines what orthodoxy is within strict and explicit boundaries. In Christianity, only the Catholics, the Orthodox and the LDS have that. The Protestants don’t have any, sort of by definition. Islam and Judaism have myriads of them instead. As an anecdotical aside, it will never cease to fascinate me how so many Americans seem to consider Catholicism to be some weird, deviant off-shoot of Christianity rather thanthe historical basis where everything else stems from. And I say this as a kid who’s technically supposed to be Lutheran (baptized, catechized, confirmed and everything. Alsatian family :)). Though I suppose it’s just as weird, or just as ethnocentric, that I’d see Caths as the norm… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/291 "2016-07-20T09:44:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 😕 That’s just absurd. Almost not worth addressing, but since so many of you seem to swallow this whole, I’ll take one more stab at it (or who knows, there may be more as I have been known to be intemperate from time to time). > > **Announcing my new religion.** It’s called The Church of Jesus Christ of Even Latterer Day Saints, as revealed to Prophet SlackerInc by these brand new Seer Stones I found (no, you can’t see them). Some of the new revelations include: > > –Everyone has to tithe directly to me. If you don’t, it’s the lake of fire for you. > –Mary wasn’t a virgin. In fact, she was the town whore. > –Jesus was fond of killing newborn babies and scooping out their brains to spread on crackers like pate. > > There you go. This is obviously a Christian religion, so you have to consider me a good Christian. You’re a bigot if you don’t! > > :rolleyes: Aw, you were doing so well until the end there. If you founded such a religion (and appeared to be serious in doing so), it would indeed be considered a Christian sect. “Good” has nothing to do with it, nor does bigotry per se; the first is relative and the second has to do with how any doctrinal disagreements manifested themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/292 "2016-07-20T10:29:56Z")
I forgot to mention something: The use of the word _cult_ tells more about the person using the word than about what the person is describing with that word. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/293 "2016-07-20T10:43:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Monty** > I forgot to mention something: The use of the word cult tells more about the person using the word than about what the person is describing with that word. Is cult a bad word or something? Don’t all religions start as cults? On Edit: Ah ok nm I get it. Durp! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/294 "2016-07-20T11:13:03Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Is cult a bad word or something? Don’t all religions start as cults? > > On Edit: Ah ok nm I get it. Durp! Great, now explain it to me. I agree with your first stab: “cult” is what the big, established religions call the little upstarts. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/295 "2016-07-20T13:32:45Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Yeah, and I know several Baptists who claim Mormons aren’t Christian at all, either. I’ve known several Baptists who claim _Catholics_ aren’t Christian. Scholarship is a bit spotty, some Baptists being well educated and some being dumb as stumps. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/296 "2016-07-20T14:35:49Z")
_Let not the eye saith to the foot “I have no need of thee”._ Christ commands us all to love our brothers as we love ourselves, simple as that … yet amazingly ignored by all. The heathen would complicate this as to form their own doctrine, their own lifestyle, their own cult. Such a lonely existence with only your bastard children to hate you, and only a tombstone to mark your worth to the world. Those that fear Islam are fools, for in truth it is your own self that you fear … you are already terrorized, petrified and loathing. The heathen have hardened their hearts and can no longer love, for they know they are not worthy of love. So they hate … first themselves, then everyone else … I’ll grant you that Jesus Christ was just a man, no better and no worse than you and I … but it took balls to forgive those who nailed Him to the cross … more balls than I have. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/297 "2016-07-20T14:51:36Z")
To Slackerinc. All monotheist must of necessity worship the same god because they admit of no other. Polytheists would not be so restricted. You are trying to apply the logic to a group for whom it is not applicable. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/298 "2016-07-20T15:17:47Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > To Slackerinc. All monotheist must of necessity worship the same god because they admit of no other. Polytheists would not be so restricted. You are trying to apply the logic to a group for whom it is not applicable. Fully admitting this is a weird hijack, this isn’t exactly true. It’s totally possible for there to be two monotheistic religions who each think that the other group is not worshiping a real God. Like the whole golden calf thing. That was supposed to be a representation of the one true God. But when God saw it he got pissed and killed a bunch of people because it wasn’t him. Or, he had Moses kill a bunch of people. (he is a jealous god). It’s just in this case they don’t worship different gods, they worship the same God in different ways. Except for maybe Christianity. The whole trinity thing always struck me as a bit odd personally. The argument could be made that Christians switched to worshiping a God that they believe to be the one true God and that Jews and Muslims are praying to a deity that doesn’t exist because it’s really not the same God. Again, this whole thing is a weird hijack. But then, this thread is strange beyond belief anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/299 "2016-07-20T15:35:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would wager that \*devout \*Christians, who aren’t just social members of the church but who take theology seriously and believe they have to actually follow Yahweh’s commandments or risk eternal damnation, are pretty consistent in seeing Islam, Mormonism, or even Catholicism (in that order) as heresy at the least. I am an atheist who has read the Bible pretty extensively, and frankly the only “Christians” who could possibly take all those faiths as being essentially compatible are mushy-headed namby-pambies who aren’t taking almost any of the Scripture seriously–to the point that you have to wonder why they bother. Is it for the church basement potlucks or what? You can get those at a Unitarian church without having to pretend you believe in a theological doctrine that you clearly don’t. Well, you obviously haven’t studied it all that extensively, because you don’t seem to know jackshit about Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/300 "2016-07-20T15:49:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, you obviously haven’t studied it all that extensively, because you don’t seem to know jackshit about Catholicism. I bet he doesn’t know _Jack_ about Mormonism either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=16)