# How many more attacks before the West has to consider the previously unthinkable? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950 "2016-07-15T02:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/301 "2016-07-20T15:55:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would wager that \*devout \*Christians, who aren’t just social members of the church but who take theology seriously and believe they have to actually follow Yahweh’s commandments or risk eternal damnation, are pretty consistent in seeing Islam, Mormonism, or even Catholicism (in that order) as heresy at the least. I am an atheist who has read the Bible pretty extensively, and frankly the only “Christians” who could possibly take all those faiths as being essentially compatible are mushy-headed namby-pambies who aren’t taking almost any of the Scripture seriously–to the point that you have to wonder why they bother. Is it for the church basement potlucks or what? You can get those at a Unitarian church without having to pretend you believe in a theological doctrine that you clearly don’t. You only demonstrate here that you are one of the board’s true idiots and nothing that you say should be taken seriously. (I’m an atheist as well, FWIW.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/302 "2016-07-20T19:29:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You only demonstrate here that you are one of the board’s true idiots and nothing that you say should be taken seriously. (I’m an atheist as well, FWIW.) And a doodyhead. FWIW. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/303 "2016-07-20T20:28:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You do realize “heresy” is a Catholic concept, right ? Purely? I thought that Protestants also dismissed some notions as heretical – such as anti-Trinitarianism, etc. C.S. Lewis, a Protestant, wrote about the early heresies in the church, and supported their suppression. Even to a Protestant, Arianism and Montanism and Manicheanism are hugely erroneous. ETA: Well, not all, of course. Isaac Newton was an Arianist! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/304 "2016-07-20T20:31:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > . . . There you go. This is obviously a Christian religion, so you have to consider me a good Christian. You’re a bigot if you don’t! . . . No one here has said that the LDS, SDA, JW, and others are “Good” Christians. We’ve only said they are “Christians.” Frankly, I think they’re really bad Christians! ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/305 "2016-07-20T20:41:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I emailed my two devoutly Christian friends to weigh in on whether they believe Muslims worship the same god as Christians. I find it difficult to believe that you have friends. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/306 "2016-07-20T20:47:01Z")
You caught me! They are made up, I never leave my moms basement, etc. 😛 Actually, I am quite extroverted and gregarious. Witty and charming too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/307 "2016-07-20T21:01:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And a doodyhead. FWIW. 😉 That too, but that’s in addition to the idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/308 "2016-07-20T21:04:12Z")
As the parallel structure should have made clear to you, I was calling _you_ a doodyhead. But maybe doodyheads are incapable of parsing such things. HTH! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/309 "2016-07-20T23:21:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No one here has said that the LDS, SDA, JW, and others are “Good” Christians. We’ve only said they are “Christians.” Frankly, I think they’re really bad Christians! Odd. I happen to think the LDS are really good Christians. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/310 "2016-07-21T02:02:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Great, now explain it to me. I agree with your first stab: “cult” is what the big, established religions call the little upstarts. There are four general meanings of the word cult as it is used in American English. [ul][li]1) as a direct cognate translation of the Latin _cultus_, meaning any well-organized set of religious beliefs. In this sense, all the various sects and denominations of Christianity and Islam could each be called cults, as could Judaism or its individula groups, Hinduism or its individual sects, etc. (Translations of statements from the Vatican occasionally raise the ire of various people when the word _cultus_ is rendered from the Latin as “cult” and the people in question assume that the Vatican was using the word in one of the next three meanings.)[/li] [li]2) any religious group with a strong connection to a living or recently-deceased leader. In this case the LDS could be called a cult only up until the death of Brigham Young, at which point the direct connection to Joseph Smith was broken. On the other hand, Christianity would be a cult of Jesus, in this sense, until the death of the first generation of Apostles. After that, however, it would no longer meet this definition.[/li] [li]3) a nominally religious-based group enforcing control over all aspects of the lives of its adherents in the manner of Jim Jones, etc. [/li] [li]4) any religious group opposed by various fundie groups.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/311 "2016-07-21T02:14:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There are four general meanings of the word cult as it is used in American English. > > [ul][li]1) as a direct cognate translation of the Latin _cultus_, meaning any well-organized set of religious beliefs. In this sense, all the various sects and denominations of Christianity and Islam could each be called cults, as could Judaism or its individula groups, Hinduism or its individual sects, etc. (Translations of statements from the Vatican occasionally raise the ire of various people when the word _cultus_ is rendered from the Latin as “cult” and the people in question assume that the Vatican was using the word in one of the next three meanings.)[/li] > [li]2) any religious group with a strong connection to a living or recently-deceased leader. In this case the LDS could be called a cult only up until the death of Brigham Young, at which point the direct connection to Joseph Smith was broken. On the other hand, Christianity would be a cult of Jesus, in this sense, until the death of the first generation of Apostles. After that, however, it would no longer meet this definition.[/li] > [li]3) a nominally religious-based group enforcing control over all aspects of the lives of its adherents in the manner of Jim Jones, etc. [/li] > [li]4) any religious group opposed by various fundie groups.[/li][/ul] That’s a nice rundown. I am still not clear about what \*\*Monty \*\*was getting at, but if he wants to remain coy, w/e. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/312 "2016-07-21T03:10:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That’s a nice rundown. I am still not clear about what \*\*Monty \*\*was getting at, but if he wants to remain coy, w/e. Your post to which he responded looked a lot as though you were a proponent of definition #4. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/313 "2016-07-21T03:27:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your post to which he responded looked a lot as though you were a proponent of definition #4. ORLY? Can you back up that assertion? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/314 "2016-07-21T03:39:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ORLY? Can you back up that assertion? Sure. Monty appears to have drawn that conclusion. I made no claim to know what you meant, but you indicated confusion regarding Monty’s intention and I provided it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/315 "2016-07-21T03:41:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ORLY? Can you back up that assertion? Well, you were agreeing with the position “Mormons aren’t Christians”, which is a hallmark of “various fundie groups”. That did give me the impression that you’re accepting the fundie groups’ authority to determine what counts as Christian and what does not. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/316 "2016-07-21T03:49:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sure. Monty appears to have drawn that conclusion. I made no claim to know what you meant, but you indicated confusion regarding Monty’s intention and I provided it. You didn’t say anything about Monty. You said: > [@tomndebb](#): > > Your post to which he responded looked a lot as though you were a proponent of definition #4. The only reasonable way to read this is that \*you \*thought it looked a lot like that. Otherwise, you’d write “…looked _to Monty_ a lot like…”. (In which case I’d wonder why you were speaking for Monty.) > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, you were agreeing with the position “Mormons aren’t Christians”, which is a hallmark of “various fundie groups”. That did give me the impression that you’re accepting the fundie groups’ authority to determine what counts as Christian and what does not. This doesn’t have anything to do with my use of the word “cult”, which was in the parenthetical aside “(cult, sect, whatever)” after I wrote “my new religion” (this may not be exact as I’m too lazy to go look up the exact wording, but that’s very close). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/317 "2016-07-21T06:16:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That’s a nice rundown. I am still not clear about what \*\*Monty \*\*was getting at, but if he wants to remain coy, w/e. Who’s being coy? You’re pretending that you are; however, your pretenses are proving to be nothing other than inanities. You certainly haven’t provided any evidence that supports your claim to knowledge here. As **tomndebb** mentioned, it was quite obvious that you were tossing out def. #4 as the meaning of _cult_. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/318 "2016-07-21T06:32:43Z")
Ehhhh…no. Better go back to mind reading school. Maybe regular reading school too, if you think my posting style is that of someone who plays it coy rather than just speaking my mind. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/319 "2016-07-21T21:36:40Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The only reasonable way to read this is that \*you \*thought it looked a lot like that. Otherwise, you’d write “…looked _to Monty_ a lot like…”. (In which case I’d wonder why you were speaking for Monty.) The only reasonable way for you to read it would have been to re-read your statement in light of my post. Reasonable is not a standard I have ever seen anyone apply to your opinions, of course. The issue has been mentioned in off board discussions with the exact conclusion I provided. meh ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/320 "2016-07-21T22:01:20Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > To Slackerinc. All monotheist must of necessity worship the same god because they admit of no other. Polytheists would not be so restricted. You are trying to apply the logic to a group for whom it is not applicable. Now that I don’t agree with. It is possible to argue that at least some are worshiping a fictitious god, or some other non-god entity. And that is precisely what happens, even between different Christian sects. My argument is that all three claim to be worshiping the same God Abraham did. So, from at least Abraham back, these three gods have the same history. So it just makes more sense to say they are the same god worshiped differently. If, on the other hand, one claimed to be worshiping, say, Zeus as the one true God, then I would say they were not worshiping the same God. There is no shared history. Each must either be fictitious or a non-god entity, as far as the non-worshipers are concerned. And, in fact, there are Christians that believe that all false gods were demons. Which reinforces what I said above: how can a demon have the same history as the God of Abraham? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=17)