# How many more attacks before the West has to consider the previously unthinkable? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950 "2016-07-15T02:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/501 "2016-07-28T22:41:18Z")
Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/502 "2016-07-28T22:42:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Is it not obvious that by pointing out 720,000,000 of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims favor death for apostasy equates ‘majority’? > > And besides, throw in the virtually endless number of other barbaric, misogynistic and homophobic Islamic beliefs and practices dominant in most Islamic countries and you’ll be well above the 50% mark (as if pointing out that any of them are under 50% is some sort of moral victory for the left :rolleyes: ). Misspoke. Does not equate to a majority. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/503 "2016-07-28T22:47:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For the last 50 years or more I’ve had to listen to endless broadbrush whinging and insults from the left aimed at “Republicans”, “conservatives”, “right-wingnuts”, “Christians”, “men” (and even worse, “white men”) that were anything but discriminating as to what percentage of the offending group was actually committing whatever real or imagined wrongdoing that was involved, with said wrongdoings being so far removed from the things going on in the Muslim world that to call them trivial would be an overstatement. > > But when it comes to Islam, it’s expected that we drill down and make a point of excluding whichever percentage isn’t included in whatever evil is being perpetrated and then either ignore or turn a blind eye to the rest, uttering not a word of protest or criticism. > > Given that the left in this country has been so rabid for so long about so many offenses in the U.S. that pale when compared to those going on in the Muslim world, and that their defense of Islam and turning a blind eye to its ills, I’ve come to the conclusion that human rights and suffering aren’t really what American liberalism is concerned with, despite its never-ending whingement over anything and everything that can possibly be stretched into a social injustice of some kind. > > No, I can only conclude instead that in America the liberal contingent simply waits to see how the right is going to come down on an issue and then fervently mounts an opposition, no matter which side of human rights issues this places them on or how hypocritical it makes them appear. This is the only explanation I can think of to explain the left’s feverish defense of Islam despite the fact that most of the world’s Muslims believe in and support attitudes, beliefs and practices a thousand times worse than anything that American liberals have been getting all het up over in the U.S. for the last 50 years. I’d be happy to entertain alternative explanations should any exist. Well, I guess you can at least claim a certain consistency in your efforts at “logic.” I can’t say much more for it. You pick the most extreme cases of the loudest people on the farthest “left” and then act as though anyone who happens to accept the description as a “liberal” holds all those extreme views in lockstep. You paint a large segment of the American public with the widest paint roller imaginable, claiming that they make broad brush claims about your political associates. meh If you can only talk about issues as though everyone on each side lined up in lockstep, you have nothing to bring to the discussion but acrimony, nothing reasonable or considered, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/504 "2016-07-28T22:55:34Z")
Well, when the loudest and most extreme members of the left appear to be not only its spokesmen but drivers of change, and the rest stay silent and let it go unopposed, there’s nothing to grab onto in order to excuse the majority from agreement with the extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/505 "2016-07-28T23:14:18Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Here, how about this for a goalpost, which I promise not to move. In what Muslim-majority countries could my wife live openly as the person she is? _Safely_, that is. I don’t demand that she be embraced by all. We live in the American “heartland”, the Bible Belt, and here she feels that many people wrinkle their noses at her and judge her negatively. Specifically, she is an unabashed atheist, an ardent feminist, and a strong supporter of abortion rights and LGBTQ rights (probably stronger than I am TBH). She prefers to wear tank tops and such when it’s hot out, as it is for months at a time in this region. For starters, AFAICT your wife would probably not have any problem with her dress code or her personal opinions in Albania (59% Muslim). Although if she wants to visit a church or mosque (perhaps unlikely given her personal opinions?), it would be polite for her to cover her shoulders, as indeed is the case in many US houses of worship. The Albanian government is secular, with laws permitting abortion and prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (Albania is ranked 19th out of 49 European countries on LGBT rights). Probably most Albanians would disagree with or disapprove of some of your wife’s liberal views, but if she lives in the US Bible Belt I’m sure she’s used to that. I’ll do some more investigation on other Muslim-majority nations and get back to you with additional info. **Requisite disclaimer for the people who think that paying attention to specific facts on Islam-related issues automatically makes one an “Islam apologist” or “terrorist sympathizer” or whatever: Of course, nobody is attempting in any way to deny that there ought to be many _more_ Muslim-majority nations which freely tolerate the expression of liberal views, personal autonomy in dress, etc., than there currently are.** ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/506 "2016-07-28T23:18:07Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > For the last 50 years or more I’ve had to listen to endless broadbrush whinging and insults Well, you’re free to call out “broadbrush whinging and insults” directed at you and/or your ideological allies whenever you encounter it. But resorting to broadbrush whinging and insults on your own account, on the _two-wrongs-must-be-better-than-a-right_ principle, is not a legitimate argument. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/507 "2016-07-28T23:20:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Except that it **does** have a very significant bearing on your own ignorant essentialist claims that “What Islam is is what Muhammad said it was”. If global Christianity overall today is more humane on average than global Islam overall today, and you’re claiming that that difference is because of _INNATE_ differences in the ways that the Muslim and Christian religions **originated** many centuries ago, then **your “innate differences” myth is fundamentally contradicted by the fact that in medieval times global Christianity overall was _less_ humane on average than global Islam**. > > If you don’t want people bringing up comparisons between **medieval** Islam and Christianity because you think they’re not relevant to the state of world religion today, then your ill-informed yawping about **ancient** Islam and Christianity is **also** not relevant to the state of world religion today. > > Like all the other ignorant Islamophobic jackasses, you want to be able to spew vague historical speculations when you think they support the point you’re trying to make, while at the same time disallowing other historical references when they **don’t** support the point you’re trying to make. But you can’t get away with that kind of double standard here on the Dope. You’re mixing some things up, and doing what a LOT of Islam apologists here are doing, burying the lead. I don’t believe theology is the ONLY thing that drives the beliefs and attitudes of people. Culture is a powerful variable in moderating religious influences in society, or inflaming them. But the doctrines still matter in terms of whether some cultural changes are more effective at overruling religions ideas and attitudes or not. Will it be JUST as easy separating church and state between Christians and Muslims? I don’t think so, because with Islam the religion has more to say about the actions of the state and peoples relation to it. As for my vague speculations, here is something more concrete. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/EDmfUdQL8ho/hqdefault.jpg "My Chat with Bill Warner on Political Islam (THE SAAD TRUTH\_123)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmfUdQL8ho) You don’t need to watch the whole thing, just listen to the part about How much of the Quran/Sira/Hadith is devoted to non muslims/kafir… 51% Now tell me, if Over HALF of the doctrine/stories/examples of the prophet deal with interactions with non muslims, most of it in the negative, is it CRAZY to suggest that this makes Islam structurally more antagonistic towards other belief systems? Talk of history, how about actual DATA sets like religious plurality in muslim majority countries? How are Zoroastrians doing in Iran? Christians? Jews? The middle east in general? Everything I hear is that the muslim population is much more antagonistic towards religious minorities, even in Lebanon where there is a plurality with Christians, they had a god damn civil war not too long ago. In India there are continual flareups in Kashmir. In the US issues are smaller, but so is the muslim population, if it grows large enough I expect the same sorts of phenomenon to a greater degree. Why? Because of something very basic Kimtsu. I RESPECT muslims more than you do (now now, don’t spit out ALL your drink). Some of them actually study their faith, and when they read the doctrines in the Quran, read about the life of Muhammad, about how they are expected to react towards others, SOME of them will actually believe the sh\*t they read. I know, shocking. But people like you? all belief systems are basically equal, no one religion has ideas that are any more or less likely to be resistant to liberal democracy, or more intolerant of the “other.” Am I caricaturing your beliefs? Do you NOT believe that different religious doctrines are essentially irrelevant when it comes to how practitioners behave? Or that with the same cultural influences, they will all basically conform in the same ways? If so I find it absolutely insane. If you have a field in space, its effects often depend on the charge of the particles within the field. The intuition that all religions conform in similar ways before the onslaught of culture seems as ridiculous to me as the claim that all particles behave in identical ways amidst the same type of field. I have two basic intuitions about Islam: -Islam has more justifications for being intertwined with the state than christianity -Islam is more antagonistic towards non muslims than other faiths (or incorrect variants of muslims, like the Amadiyah muslim that was murdered in the UK) > **[Scotland Yard warns Muslims against sectarian feuds after Glasgow murder](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/23/asad-shah-stabbed-ahmadiyya-muslim-glasgow)** > > Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe visits mosque in support of 30,000-strong Ahmadiyya community following the killing of shopkeeper Asad Shah last month Whether these two intuitions of mine are correct or not is the actual lead. If those two things are correct, Islam will be INTRINSICALLY more resistant to the kinds of modernization that the christian world has undergone. Does that mean the task to reform it is impossible? Well no, but more difficult? Absolutely, maybe so difficult it would be more beneficial to sway people away from Islam altogether. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/508 "2016-07-28T23:26:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, when the loudest and most extreme members of the left appear to be not only its spokesmen but drivers of change, and the rest stay silent and let it go unopposed, there’s nothing to grab onto in order to excuse the majority from agreement with the extremists. Which works exactly the same way when looking at the Right. I have never seen any “responsible” people on the Right seriously try to refute or even tone down Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, etc. (Heck, the one time a Republican tried to claim that Limbaugh did not speak for all Republicans, the RNC made their own chairman apologize to Limbaugh.) You simply point to the extremes you don’t like, lump everyone else on the “other side” with the extremes, and pretend that the extremes on your side are not there. As long as you play the game you are playing, now, you remove yourself from the pool of responsible citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/509 "2016-07-28T23:39:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > In what Muslim-majority countries could my wife live openly as the person she is? First follow-up: AFAICT, in Bosnia (50.7% Muslim) wearing tank tops is also accepted, and abortion and same-sex relationships are also legal (although same-sex couples are legally discriminated against as far as, e.g., marriage laws are concerned, which of course is the case for many non-Muslim countries as well). So, not surprisingly, it looks as though your wife’s clothing choices and opinions would not realistically endanger her safety in Muslim-majority countries in Europe, because Muslim-majority countries in Europe in many ways are quite similar to their neighboring non-Muslim-majority countries. Gee, **it almost seems as though mores and laws in Muslim societies are affected by culture and history and politics and a whole host of other factors, instead of being a worldwide uniform monolith of fundamentalist hive-mind programming**. :dubious: Nah, impossible, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/510 "2016-07-28T23:43:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For starters, AFAICT your wife would probably not have any problem with her dress code or her personal opinions in Albania (59% Muslim). Although if she wants to visit a church or mosque (perhaps unlikely given her personal opinions?), it would be polite for her to cover her shoulders, as indeed is the case in many US houses of worship. The Albanian government is secular, with laws permitting abortion and prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (Albania is ranked 19th out of 49 European countries on LGBT rights). > > Probably most Albanians would disagree with or disapprove of some of your wife’s liberal views, but if she lives in the US Bible Belt I’m sure she’s used to that. > > I’ll do some more investigation on other Muslim-majority nations and get back to you with additional info. Okay, good on Albania. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/511 "2016-07-28T23:45:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > First follow-up: AFAICT, in Bosnia (50.7% Muslim) wearing tank tops is also accepted, and abortion and same-sex relationships are also legal (although same-sex couples are legally discriminated against as far as, e.g., marriage laws are concerned, which of course is the case for many non-Muslim countries as well). > > So, not surprisingly, it looks as though your wife’s clothing choices and opinions would not realistically endanger her safety in Muslim-majority countries in Europe, because Muslim-majority countries in Europe in many ways are quite similar to their neighboring non-Muslim-majority countries. > > Gee, **it almost seems as though mores and laws in Muslim societies are affected by culture and history and politics and a whole host of other factors, instead of being a worldwide uniform monolith of fundamentalist hive-mind programming**. :dubious: Nah, impossible, right? :rolleyes: You really don’t think that it might be because 40 to 49 percent of those countries’ citizens are not Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/512 "2016-07-29T00:33:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You really don’t think that it might be because 40 to 49 percent of those countries’ citizens are not Muslim? Well, how do you reconcile that hypothesis with the abovementioned comparison with Cameroon? I.e., both Bosnia and Albania, which are 50-60% Muslim, are much more liberal on, e.g., gay rights and abortion than Cameroon, which is only 21% Muslim. To repeat: In majority-Christian Cameroon in sub-Saharan Africa, both Christians and Muslims are extremely intolerant of homosexuality and abortion, while in majority-Muslim Bosnia and Albania in Europe, both Christians and Muslims are much more tolerant of homosexuality and abortion. You really have to struggle to look at that comparison and try to argue that it must be specifically the _Muslims_ causing the high intolerance levels. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/513 "2016-07-29T00:40:42Z")
On the bright side, as [our own **even sven** has reported](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9924896&postcount=13), there are regions in Cameroon where it would be completely acceptable for your wife to go topless. Muslim women in those regions also go topless (but wear their Muslim headscarf for modesty, natch). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/514 "2016-07-29T00:54:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, how do you reconcile that hypothesis with the abovementioned comparison with Cameroon? > > I.e., both Bosnia and Albania, which are 50-60% Muslim, are much more liberal on, e.g., gay rights and abortion than Cameroon, which is only 21% Muslim. > > To repeat: In majority-Christian Cameroon in sub-Saharan Africa, both Christians and Muslims are extremely intolerant of homosexuality and abortion, while in majority-Muslim Bosnia and Albania in Europe, both Christians and Muslims are much more tolerant of homosexuality and abortion. > > You really have to struggle to look at that comparison and try to argue that it must be specifically the _Muslims_ causing the high intolerance levels. :rolleyes: Not at all. Do you know what an “outlier” is? If you do, you are being very disingenuous. Your exact method of cherrypicking could be used to “prove” that women are just as tall as men. IOW, the valid comparison is the _median_ predominantly Muslim country vs. the _median_ predominantly Christian country. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/515 "2016-07-29T01:09:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > . . . for the majority of the world’s Muslims, Islam is anything but a religion of peace, love and tolerance. . . . Same challenge as above: back this up. Show us what the majority of Muslims do that indicates violence, hatred, or intolerance. You’ve made the claim; can you back it up, where no one else has been able to? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/516 "2016-07-29T01:11:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not at all. Do you know what an “outlier” is? If you do, you are being very disingenuous. Your exact method of cherrypicking could be used to “prove” that women are just as tall as men. :dubious: I think you must be misunderstanding me. I am certainly not claiming that there aren’t **any** societies where social conservatism and repression are driven by Islamist ideologies. What I am doing is pointing out that it’s obviously unsound to argue that social repressiveness **must** be due to “Muslimness” in and of itself, since we see clear examples of **less** repressive societies that are nonetheless **more** Muslim than some **more** repressive societies. [QUOTE=SlackerInc] IOW, the valid comparison is the _median_ predominantly Muslim country vs. the _median_ predominantly Christian country. [/QUOTE] 😕 What would that be attempting to prove? That modern majority-Christian cultures **on average** worldwide are more liberal than modern majority-Muslim cultures **on average** worldwide? **But as I keep saying over and over** (most recently in a post to **Salvor** ), **nobody is in the least disputing that claim at all. Everybody _readily agrees_ that nowadays global Christian culture _overall_ is more tolerant than global Muslim culture _overall_**. What we don’t agree on is whether we should simplistically and ignorantly attempt to attribute that difference in the current historical moment to **intrinsic and fundamental ideological differences built into Christianity and Islam from the very start of their existence.** FFS, **SlackerInc** , and after you explicitly **promised** you wouldn’t move the goalposts, too. :rolleyes: I think maybe you just don’t do very well at keeping track of exactly what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/517 "2016-07-29T01:13:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Is it not obvious that by pointing out 720,000,000 of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims favor death for apostasy equates ‘majority’? . . . Hint. Get out a pocket calculator. Enter 720,000,000 and then multiply by 2. The product is less than 1.6 billion. So you’ve just failed on the face of it. You just pointed to a minority, as if it fulfills a claim made about a majority. Can you even support this cite? **Magiver** was only able to point to 400,000,000. That’s not a majority. You just cited a number that would be larger (but still not a majority); now can you cite that this many people actually favor the death penalty for apostasy? Now can you point to an actual majority of 1.6 billion that favors the death penalty for apostasy? (You’re allowed to use a calculator.) You made a specific claim: can you validate it? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/518 "2016-07-29T01:27:59Z")
So, back to our original goalpost position of analyzing **SlackerInc** ’s wife’s travel options. Kyrgyzstan (89% Muslim) has legal abortion and legal same-sex relations, but as in Russia, same-sex couples face discrimination and so-called “propaganda” “promoting” same-sex relations is prohibited. On the other hand, Western-style clothing is popular and [locals apparently find it amusing when tourists assume they have to dress “modestly” in order not to offend them](https://aidaika.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/dress-code-in-kyrgyzstan-summer/): > [@](#): > > I met a traveler this summer who said: “[…] I feel stupid to wear this long sleeve tunic and long skirt in this 38C heat, when everyone else is flaunting with stylish mini-skirts, shorts and see-through dresses and blouses.” She ran to “Dordoi” next day, the local biggest market, to shop for shorts and tops. […] Once when I was in some village, I heard people saying about the visiting English teacher: “She is so cute to wear this long dress to please us, but isn’t she uncomfortable? Tell her she shouldn’t be shy to wear the style she is used to.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/519 "2016-07-29T01:43:36Z")
On to Tajikistan (99% Muslim)! Legal abortion and legal same-sex relations, though again same-sex couples aren’t legally protected from discrimination. Nix on the tank-tops, though: appropriate clothing is expected to cover the torso, legs and shoulders. Turkey (99% Muslim): Legal abortion (although in practical terms abortion can be difficult to obtain, a situation not unknown in certain non-Muslim countries as well), and legal same-sex relations with the usual caveat about no legal protection from discrimination or equal marriage rights. Interestingly, transgender rights are in some ways more advanced in Turkey than in the US, with a legally recognized right to change one’s gender dating back as far as 1988. Dress codes in urban areas are typical of European cities: no bare shoulders or knees when visiting a mosque or other formal setting, but otherwise not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/520 "2016-07-29T01:44:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hint. Get out a pocket calculator. Enter 720,000,000 and then multiply by 2. The product is less than 1.6 billion. So you’ve just failed on the face of it. You just pointed to a minority, as if it fulfills a claim made about a majority. To give credit where it’s due, **SA** noticed and corrected that error in post #502. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=27)