# How many more attacks before the West has to consider the previously unthinkable? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950 "2016-07-15T02:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/521 "2016-07-29T02:03:39Z")
Welcome to Turkmenistan (93% Muslim)! Legal abortion. Oddly, male homosexuality is criminalized but female homosexuality is not. Sleeveless shirts and knee-length shorts or skirts are accepted but no thigh-baring shorts or minis, please. Uzbekistan (97% Muslim): Legal abortion. Same gender-unequal homosexuality laws as Turkmenistan. Summer visitors to, e.g., Tashkent [seem to dress about as casually and/or skimpily as Americans do](https://melikian.asu.edu/cli/uzbek), so tank tops OK. Winter visitors to Tashkent should know better than to wear tank tops in subfreezing temperatures, natch. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/522 "2016-07-29T02:11:10Z")
Middle Eastern and North African majority-Muslim countries, except for Turkey, mostly resemble each other in repressiveness concerning abortion, homosexuality, and female clothing. So stay out of there, I guess. Of course, as I noted above, that whole region contains only about 20% of all the world’s Muslims, though that fact seems to surprise many people. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/523 "2016-07-29T02:14:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Welcome to Turkmenistan (93% Muslim)! Legal abortion. Oddly, male homosexuality is criminalized but female homosexuality is not. Sleeveless shirts and knee-length shorts or skirts are accepted but no thigh-baring shorts or minis, please. > > Uzbekistan (97% Muslim): Legal abortion. Same gender-unequal homosexuality laws as Turkmenistan. Summer visitors to, e.g., Tashkent [seem to dress about as casually and/or skimpily as Americans do](https://melikian.asu.edu/cli/uzbek), so tank tops OK. Winter visitors to Tashkent should know better than to wear tank tops in subfreezing temperatures, natch. This is a focus on the relative non problems. It’s like saying Rio is a lovely city for the Olympics to be held at but ignore disturbing things like… > **[Brazilian police greet tourists with 'Welcome to Hell' sign at Rio airport](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/brazil-rio-police-welcome-to-hell-tourists-olympics-a7108091.html)** > > Rio's mayor says the Olympics could be a 'big failure' due to financial crisis And of course the result of sewage dumping into the sea leads to… > **[‘Superbug’ found in Rio bay not likely to cause infection | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/05/health/cre-brazilian-bay-olympics/)** > > Brazilian scientists have detected CRE, antibiotic-resistant bacteria, in waters of Olympic competition bay. Risk of infection is low for athletes and visitors. But at least it’s not likely to cause infection… People are not worried about the muslim population that will leave others alone and live their own lives, they are worried about the segment that will be so irritated by the other they will slit their throats while claiming Allahs blessing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/524 "2016-07-29T02:16:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hint. Get out a pocket calculator. Enter 720,000,000 and then multiply by 2. The product is less than 1.6 billion. I’m pressed for time at the moment so this is all I’ll address for now, but where do you think I got the 720,000,000 figure from, hmm? I calculated it as 45% of 1.6 billion. The correction in post 502 was from a misspeakment I made while typing out the preceding post. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/525 "2016-07-29T02:31:54Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > This is a focus on the relative non problems. Well don’t blame me, I’m just answering the specific questions that **SlackerInc** asked about majority-Muslim countries. Thanks for the completely off-topic cites about Brazil, though. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/526 "2016-07-29T03:09:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To give credit where it’s due, **SA** noticed and corrected that error in post #502. Okay; fair enough. I missed that. Still, all **Magiver** could give us was 400,000,000 which is not a majority of 1.2 billion. So we’re still short of a majority. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/527 "2016-07-29T03:11:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m pressed for time at the moment so this is all I’ll address for now, but where do you think I got the 720,000,000 figure from, hmm? I calculated it as 45% of 1.6 billion. The correction in post 502 was from a misspeakment I made while typing out the preceding post. Where did the number “45%” come from? Can you point to a source? And why do you use 45% when you say “a majority?” And can you point to a source that lists 720,000,000 Muslims favoring the death penalty for apostasy? You’ve made some specific concrete claims. Do you have evidence for them? I apologize for snarking on your math error, if it was only a typo. Tyops shouldn’t be used against people. But, c’mon: facts, dude. Where are your facts? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/528 "2016-07-29T03:19:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Where did the number “45%” come from? Can you point to a source? That was me, back in [post #450](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19512096&postcount=450) (ooh, serendipitous multiple! I did not notice that earlier. :)) It was based on data from the 2013 Pew report that everybody’s been talking about here: > [@Kimstu](#): > > On page 23 of the linked report, there’s a handy table showing what median percentage of shari’a law supporters among Muslims in a given region support the death penalty for apostasy. Namely: > > In South and Central Asia, which has about 32% of the world’s Muslims, the median percentage of the 84% who are shari’a supporters who favor executing apostates is 76%: **20% of the total**. > > In Southeast Asia there are about another 30% of the world’s Muslims, 77% of them shari’a-ites, median percentage who favor executing apostates 27%: **6% of the total**. > > In the MENA countries, about 20% of total Muslims, 74% of them pro-shari’a, 56% of those pro-DP for apostates: **8% of the total**. > > In sub-Saharan Africa, 15% of all Muslims, 64% of them pro-shari’a, no separate figure given for apostasy-DP supporters so let’s call it 100% to make absolutely sure we’re not underestimating: **10% of the total**. > > Among the approximately 3% of the world’s Muslims who live elsewhere, less than 20% are pro-shari’a and less than 20% of those are pro-DP, so the total’s not even 0.1%, but **let’s call it 1%** for a round number. > > **Adding up all those totals and remembering that they were estimated very generously, we get about 45% of all the world’s Muslims who support the death penalty for apostates.** [QUOTE=Trinopus] And why do you use 45% when you say “a majority?” [/quote] That, I’m guessing, was the math fail that **SA** corrected in post #502. [QUOTE=Trinopus] And can you point to a source that lists 720,000,000 Muslims favoring the death penalty for apostasy? [/quote] Not to brag or anything, but I think that was me again. Or rather, ultimately the Pew Foundation and its sources with me doing the back-of-the-envelope data analysis and the typing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/529 "2016-07-29T04:21:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > . . . Not to brag or anything, but I think that was me again. Or rather, ultimately the Pew Foundation and its sources with me doing the back-of-the-envelope data analysis and the typing. I need a scorecard; I can’t tell who’s on first. I apologize to anyone who has not actually made a claim that I thought they had. Anyway, as far as I can tell, no one has backed up the claim that a majority of Muslims are hate-filled, violent, or intolerant. Someone – two someones, if not three – have made that claim. It simply h’ain’t true. (And, as you’ve noted any number of times, yes, 400,000,000 is way too high. It’s not a good thing by any means. But some of the people posting here have specifically said “a majority,” and I’d really like them to back away from this claim, because it’s obvious they cannot demonstrate it to be true.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/530 "2016-07-29T05:54:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I need a scorecard; I can’t tell who’s on first. I apologize to anyone who has not actually made a claim that I thought they had. > > Anyway, as far as I can tell, no one has backed up the claim that a majority of Muslims are hate-filled, violent, or intolerant. Someone – two someones, if not three – have made that claim. It simply h’ain’t true. > > (And, as you’ve noted any number of times, yes, 400,000,000 is way too high. It’s not a good thing by any means. But some of the people posting here have specifically said “a majority,” and I’d really like them to back away from this claim, because it’s obvious they cannot demonstrate it to be true.) If I’m one of those two or three then you’ve another apology to make, as I’ve never said a majority of the world’s Muslims favor death for apostasy. But two things: One, what the hell difference does a 6% spread make? I don’t care if it’s 45% or 51%, both the percentage and the number of Muslims who favor death for not believing like they want you to is monstrous. Imagine, 720,000,000 people favor that! _That’s 2.25 times the number of people who live in the United States!_ And two, why the focus on apostasy only? Add in Sharia law for all, death by stoning for adultery, lopping off hands for theft, support for suicide bombings, homosexual disapproval rates approaching 100% in some of the more rabid countries, support for misogynistic practices that keep women covered up, required to obey their husbands at all times, unable to go out on their own and/or become educated, and you have well over a majority who believes in and supports these abominable practices. Given all this, is it really any wonder that some of Islam’s more devout followers twist off into even more extreme interpretations of what makes for a good Muslim, and/or comes to believe the most heinous forms of torture/murder are appropriate punishments for not living up to what they feel are proper tenets of Islam? And yet here we have America’s liberals, who, when called on it, find themselves obliged to acknowledge that, yes, all this stuff is bad, yet there’s nary a word of criticism or condemnation going from them about any of it. And then barring their being confronted with actual facts and figures about the horrors of Islam which they can’t refute, they gleefully leap to the defense of Islam any and every time someone criticizes it, hurling expletives like “racist” or “xenophobe” at anyone and everyone who dares broach the subject at all. It doesn’t begin to make sense. You couldn’t invent a more anti-liberal ideology than Islam if you tried, yet here are our country’s liberals, defending it angrily and hatefully every time the subject comes up. Go figure! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/531 "2016-07-29T06:16:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It doesn’t begin to make sense. You couldn’t invent a more anti-liberal ideology than Islam if you tried, yet here are our country’s liberals, defending it angrily and hatefully every time the subject comes up. Go figure! Here in America, we believe in a thing called “freedom of religion”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/532 "2016-07-29T06:43:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Here in America, we believe in a thing called “freedom of religion”. That just means you get to choose which flavour of Christian you want to be, silly ! But you have to be one. Or else. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/533 "2016-07-29T06:48:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Here in America, we believe in a thing called “freedom of religion”. I see. So to America’s liberals, freedom of religion trumps murder, mutilation, misogyny, homophobia, etc., etc., etc.? How bizarrely noble of them! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/534 "2016-07-29T06:54:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I’m one of those two or three then you’ve another apology to make, as I’ve never said a majority of the world’s Muslims favor death for apostasy. Cool. I apologize. As far as I can tell, it was **Magiver** (in the Great Debates thread) and **SlackerInc.**. > [@](#): > > . . . what the hell difference does a 6% spread make? I don’t care if it’s 45% or 51%, both the percentage and the number of Muslims who favor death for not believing like they want you to is monstrous. Imagine, 720,000,000 people favor that! _That’s 2.25 times the number of people who live in the United States!_ Nobody’s denying it’s a horrific statistic. It’s appalling, and frightening, and nauseating. All I’m hammering on are those who said, “A majority of Muslims are violent.” And even “favoring the death penalty for apostasy” is not violence. It’s favoring repressive laws; it’s ugly as a shit sandwich. But it isn’t violence. > [@](#): > > why the focus on apostasy only? . . . This is mostly **Magiver** ’s fault. When asked about Islamic violence, he repeatedly brought that up. It doesn’t fill the bill; it doesn’t answer his claim. You’re right again: there are other forms of horrific repression being practiced, and the Islamic World has plenty of bad laws. It just isn’t unique to Islam, and it isn’t a majority, no matter how many times this gets claimed. When people are making their points, they need to keep them true. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/535 "2016-07-29T06:57:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I see. > > So to America’s liberals, freedom of religion trumps murder, mutilation, misogyny, homophobia, etc., etc., etc.? > > How bizarrely noble of them! Funny, though: nobody’s said any such thing. We’re saying that those who want to practice their religion peacefully get to. No one is saying they get to practice is violently. So this is kind of a foolish straw-man assault here. You’re blaming liberals for something liberals have never, ever, spoken in favor of. Again, keep it factual. Contra-factual arguments are easy to debunk, and don’t advance your cause. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/536 "2016-07-29T07:02:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I see. > > So to America’s liberals, freedom of religion trumps murder, mutilation, misogyny, homophobia, etc., etc., etc.? > > How bizarrely noble of them! Last time I checked, murder & mutilation are illegal here. No matter what the religion. Alas, misogyny & homophobia are legal here. But the Americans trying to make them legally _protected_ are “Christians.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/537 "2016-07-29T07:03:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So to America’s liberals, freedom of religion trumps murder, mutilation, misogyny, homophobia, etc., etc., etc.? As shocking as it may be to someone of your inestimable intelligence, freedom of religion is _not_ a defense against murder or mutilation. Your right to believe as you wish does not also grant you the right to impose your belief on others. Mysogyny and homophobia? If that’s what you believe, the government isn’t going to be able to force you to think otherwise. We’re not in the business of being thought police. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/538 "2016-07-29T07:24:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: I think you must be misunderstanding me. I am certainly not claiming that there aren’t **any** societies where social conservatism and repression are driven by Islamist ideologies. > > What I am doing is pointing out that it’s obviously unsound to argue that social repressiveness **must** be due to “Muslimness” in and of itself, since we see clear examples of **less** repressive societies that are nonetheless **more** Muslim than some **more** repressive societies. > 😕 What would that be attempting to prove? That modern majority-Christian cultures **on average** worldwide are more liberal than modern majority-Muslim cultures **on average** worldwide? > > **But as I keep saying over and over** (most recently in a post to **Salvor** ), **nobody is in the least disputing that claim at all. Everybody _readily agrees_ that nowadays global Christian culture _overall_ is more tolerant than global Muslim culture _overall_**. > > What we don’t agree on is whether we should simplistically and ignorantly attempt to attribute that difference in the current historical moment to **intrinsic and fundamental ideological differences built into Christianity and Islam from the very start of their existence.** > FFS, **SlackerInc** , and after you explicitly **promised** you wouldn’t move the goalposts, too. :rolleyes: I think maybe you just don’t do very well at keeping track of exactly what you’re talking about. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It’s not “moving goalposts” to point out when \*\*you \*\*are cherrypicking the best of one group to compare against the worst of another. Here, I’ll use a similar structure to what you wrote, adapted and substituting a few words to flesh out my “women are as tall as men” analogy: “What I am doing is pointing out that it’s obviously unsound to argue that greater average height **must** be due to ‘maleness’ in and of itself, since we see clear examples of **male** people who are nonetheless **shorter** than some **female** people.” See the problem? Being XY vs. XX has a \*strong \*effect on height; and the mere fact that some people with XX chromosomes are taller than some people with XY chromosomes does not disprove this. Similarly, I submit that in the modern world, being predominantly Muslim has a strong effect on a society in terms of making it unfriendly to progressive values–a much stronger effect, in the modern world, than does being predominantly Christian. The existence of a few predominantly Muslim outlier societies that are more progressive than a few predominantly Christian outlier societies does not change this. This is not physics. In social science comparisons, you will always have outliers, or just people/groups who are on one tail or another of the bell curve. You’ve also created a straw man, perhaps without meaning to. And if I’m generous to you, it may be that you’re getting me confused with \*\*Salvor \*\*when you argue: > [@](#): > > What we don’t agree on is whether we should simplistically and ignorantly attempt to attribute that difference in the current historical moment to **intrinsic and fundamental ideological differences built into Christianity and Islam from the very start of their existence.** I have \*never \*argued that the differences were baked in from the beginning, and I in fact _do not believe that._ As I argued to \*\*Salvor \*\*upthread, there are unambiguous commandments in the Bible (Deuteronomy is infested with them) that are as bad or probably worse than anything in the Q’uran. And Christianity was, for hundreds of years, as repressive as Islam is now, or–again–probably worse. So you can just scratch off this alleged point of disagreement, and if that was all you \*thought \*we disagreed about, I guess we don’t disagree at all! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/539 "2016-07-29T07:34:24Z")
But, but, **Smapti** , I thought you were arguing that freedom of religion is the reason liberals aren’t condemning of Islam. Is this incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/540 "2016-07-29T07:43:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Cool. I apologize. As far as I can tell, it was **Magiver** (in the Great Debates thread) and **SlackerInc.**. Thanks for the apology. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Nobody’s denying it’s a horrific statistic. It’s appalling, and frightening, and nauseating. Then why aren’t liberals assailing Islam for this and its myriad other human rights issues. Goodness knows they’ve been plenty vocal about every other thing they haven’t liked lo these many decades, and for far, far less grievous offenses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=28)