# How many more attacks before the West has to consider the previously unthinkable? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950 "2016-07-15T02:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/41 "2016-07-15T11:23:12Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’ve already decided on the unthinkable. For the first time in nearly a decade, I’m not going to France this year. It just ain’t worth the risk. I guess I shouldn’t question your decision, but I will anyway. In France, even with these terrorist attacks, you are under an extremely small risk of being a victim. Treating a place you love to visit like it’s a warzone to be avoided because of these attacks hurts the French people (albeit in a small way on an individual basis) and promotes the feelings of strength of the terrorists. I feel compelled to question your decision because I have lived what you are going through. I go to Turkey every few years. This year I wasn’t too excited about it because of the terrorism and the general negativity of the news coming from that region. Yet instead of staying home and letting those feelings grow because of what is regarded as the most important news from the country, I went and ended up having one of the best trips I’ve had to Turkey. My love for the country was rejuvenated by my time with the typical people that live there who are generally extremely friendly, open and hospitable. I can’t really put to words how much I value that I took this trip and my feelings toward the country have shifted back to what I remember. Don’t avoid places you love because of something that is less likely to happen than dying from lightning or a shark attack. If you are American, some insane person can pick up an AR-15 and slaughter you just as easily here. Just go. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Ethnic cleansing and apartheid have worked \*so \*well elsewhere, haven’t they? > > Get a grip, dude. The idea is to be \*better \*than “the bad guys”. Hasn’t the terrorism in Israel, or at least the deaths caused by terrorism in Israel declined by a huge amount since the West Bank and Gaza were effectively shut off from the outside world? I’m not saying I would aspire to follow Israeli government policy because it’s vile, but isn’t it effective? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/42 "2016-07-15T11:41:43Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’ve already decided on the unthinkable. For the first time in nearly a decade, I’m not going to France this year. It just ain’t worth the risk. We have friends who have saved and prepared for two years so that they could have their “dream vacation”. First use of their new passports, they’ve never traveled further than Ocean City, Maryland. The family is leaving for two weeks in France this morning.☹ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/43 "2016-07-15T12:06:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Oh, you mean like those Buddhists who obviously support murdering Muslims? No, I mean in a big picture percentage sort of way – It’s a very small percentage overall, but there are still more Muslims who support violence than members of other religions. I think this will change in the long term, since there’s no deep difference between the religion and any other, and is best explained by economic and geopolitical circumstances. And at the same time that we’re (hopefully) helping to improve the economic and political opportunities in countries with less, then hopefully we will be open and tolerant to Muslims and other immigrants to continue to prove that Muslims are equally capable of living peacefully and tolerantly (like Muslims in America, who are more tolerant and peaceful than Christians, on average). I think this is the best way to reduce this kind of violence, in addition to good law enforcement and intel. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/44 "2016-07-15T12:46:34Z")
At what point? Your post contains the answer: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > if every Muslim in France attacked non-Muslim innocents at some point. At such a time, an action affecting all Muslims in France would be appropriate, since all would in fact be guilty. The action most likely would be to expand the existing judicial system to handle all these criminals - a task I would indeed have a hard time thinking through. I find the notion of “2 million are trying to kill you” interesting. So far, less than 100 seem to have actively tried to kill anyone as an act of Muslim-on-non-Muslim terrorism in France in the recent past. How the hell do you extrapolate that to a number 4 orders of magnitude higher? Some special “because Muslim” math? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/45 "2016-07-15T13:37:38Z")
**OP** : I’ve said this before, but you come across like a high school senior who has only read Noam Chomsky and wants to lecture people about US foreign policy. You need to broaden your horizons beyond entertainers and polemicists and read some books by people with actual expertise in Islam, religion, and sociology. I think you should try reading the works of people who disagree with your views, but even if your preference is to read people who contend that the Islam practiced by many or most Muslims is fundamentally illiberal and incompatible with western society, there are plenty of authors who hold that opinion and actually know that the hell they’re talking about. I strongly recommend you read some Shadi Hamid. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/46 "2016-07-15T13:41:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The norm–as in the vast majority of the world’s **one billion** Muslims–are about peace and tolerance. Well, that’s just super! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/47 "2016-07-15T14:05:31Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > And here I thought that **the previously unthinkable** was thermonuclear war. :smack: Make sure there’s plenty of Chlorine tablets in Israel before you start. ---
**Author:** ![EloquentPeasant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@EloquentPeasant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EloquentPeasant)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/48 "2016-07-15T14:12:34Z")
It seems to me like this would just cause more unrest. Not to mention that you’d be rounding up a majority of innocent people, of course. This logic falls under the same kind as “incriminating people with little evidence- just in case”, which might work, but isn’t worth the injustice to innocents. I don’t know, though. It’s tough. We can’t just continue ignoring these atrocities. I suppose the first step, instead of rounding up people and forcing them on a partition, would be to criticize the fundamentally radically conservative ideology of Islam, or at least try to reform it to a more watered down alternative somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/49 "2016-07-15T15:20:32Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Well, that’s just super! Huh? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/50 "2016-07-15T15:40:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Let me stipulate up front that by “previously unthinkable” I do not mean a “Final Solution”, or even an FDR-style use of internment camps. But I do wonder if it will require something like the proposed settlements in Israel/Palestine: giving French Muslims their own country, of proportional size (and resources) to their percentage of the population. > > For years, I was always against this kind of thing, even in Israel (I thought they should just give all the residents of the occupied territories full citizenship). But this terroristic onslaught, paired with a lot of consideration of the philosophy of Sam Harris and other “New Atheists”, has led me to reconsider. > > Maybe you’re foursquare against this, and would argue that actuarially, this is still pretty low on the list of causes of death. Harris argues that this is a canard in some ways, but let’s leave that aside and ask this: how high would the death toll have to be before a different policy would seem acceptable, if not mandatory? I want to go into thought experiment territory here. > > Presumably, if every Muslim in France attacked non-Muslim innocents at some point (not all at once, but biding their time until they had a good opportunity), that’s a no-brainer. Right? Or do we stand firm on religious freedom and civil liberties (opposing “thought crime”) even then? > > Assuming that would indeed be high enough for drastic measures to be taken, what if it’s “only” a third of Muslims? Let’s say the other two-thirds were absolutely horrified by what that one-third was doing–not only for moral reasons but because they would obviously feel that the minority was ruining the majority’s standing in the society. I would submit that this is still well above the threshold where it’s an untenable situation. In a country of 64 million, 10% of whom are Muslims, how can you live with two million people who are going to try to kill you, even if the other four million are totally good eggs? > > So then what’s the threshold? Marie LePen will say they are beyond it already. I’m not sure if I agree. But I am not sure, when anyone can make a vehicle into an incredibly deadly weapon (even without the explosives), that we’re too far away from it. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I never said they would want it. I meant they would be given it and be told this is their new home, like it or not. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Seriously? If Muslims aren’t allowed in 90% of what currently constitutes France, it seems obvious to me they wouldn’t be able to carry out attacks like this in that territory. (They could decide for themselves if they want to allow non-Muslims to come into their new country.) > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m suggesting one contiguous territory, with roughly 10% of the land and 10% of France’s economic resources (I’m sure an enterprising geographer could find something that would fit the bill, maybe on the Mediterranean coast). Are you suggesting that French Muslims would not be able to be enterprising enough to make the economy work? That’s on you then–the “soft bigotry of low expectations” and all that. Tell me, is it that you were born without a moral compass or is your entire brain simply broken? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/51 "2016-07-15T15:49:35Z")
The brain has no moral compass, the soul installs it, or does not. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/52 "2016-07-15T15:51:35Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Don’t avoid places you love because of something that is less likely to happen than dying from lightning or a shark attack. If you are American, some insane person can pick up an AR-15 and slaughter you just as easily here. In fact, your odds of meeting a violent end are reduced by spending as much time as possible in France, versus staying in the States. France could have a Bataclan-scale massacre _every month,_ and this would still be true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/53 "2016-07-15T15:55:01Z")
Anybody else wondering why there were arms and explosives in the truck that had no apparent use? Nobody to use them except the driver, who was, well, driving? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/54 "2016-07-15T16:02:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Anybody else wondering why there were arms and explosives in the truck that had no apparent use? Nobody to use them except the driver, who was, well, driving? Planning a last stand, possibly ? That or there were more guys supposed to go along but they chickened out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/55 "2016-07-15T16:08:56Z")
Was thinking that last part, maybe the truck attack was improvised on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/56 "2016-07-15T16:12:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I mean in a big picture percentage sort of way – It’s a very small percentage overall, but there are still more Muslims who support violence than members of other religions. I think this will change in the long term, since there’s no deep difference between the religion and any other, and is best explained by economic and geopolitical circumstances. And at the same time that we’re (hopefully) helping to improve the economic and political opportunities in countries with less, then hopefully we will be open and tolerant to Muslims and other immigrants to continue to prove that Muslims are equally capable of living peacefully and tolerantly (like Muslims in America, who are more tolerant and peaceful than Christians, on average). I think this is the best way to reduce this kind of violence, in addition to good law enforcement and intel. Cites for any of these claims iipolyandyiii? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/57 "2016-07-15T16:12:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Little\_Pig](#): > > > > And here I thought that **the previously unthinkable** was thermonuclear war. :smack: > > Oh, that’s not unthinkable. It’s just nobody’s had the balls to kickstart one yet. Yeah, I tried running a kick starter campaign to buy a Hydrogen bomb and start WWIII, but all I got is a $15.00 donation from my mom. ☹ > [@Tithonus](#): > > I’ve already decided on the unthinkable. For the first time in nearly a decade, I’m not going to France this year. It just ain’t worth the risk. Despite the high profile of the attacks, you’re still about 20 times more likely to get killed in a traffic accident in France than in a terrorist attack. If for some reason this years trip to France involved 5% more driving, would you cancel due to the extra risk? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/58 "2016-07-15T16:14:12Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Cites for any of these claims iipolyandyiii? Perhaps later. I’ve discussed it at lengths in many other threads, with plenty of cites. Which particular claims do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/59 "2016-07-15T16:18:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps later. I’ve discussed it at lengths in many other threads, with plenty of cites. Which particular claims do you disagree with? I’m not sure I disagree as much as I am a bit dubious as to some of your assumptions. The statement that I am most curious is the one about muslims being more peaceful than christians, how would statisticians know who is a christian? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/60 "2016-07-15T16:20:06Z")
Lucky for us that Muslims are all the same, and not all divied up into Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics and such like Christians are! Whew! Lucky break there! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=4)