# How many more attacks before the West has to consider the previously unthinkable? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950 "2016-07-15T02:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/601 "2016-08-02T04:49:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > He also said the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had it coming. Fuck that guy. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/602 "2016-08-02T05:07:55Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Cite? No cite available because it’s a lie. Here’s what the Pope actually [did say](https://www.ncronline.org/news/global/about-paris-attacks-francis-says-freedom-expression-has-certain-limits) about the _Charlie Hebdo_ terrorist murders: > [@](#): > > Responding to a question related to the murders in Paris last week of journalists working for _Charlie Hebdo_ magazine, the pope said first that religious liberty and liberty of expression are both “fundamental human rights.” […] > > “One cannot offend, make war, kill in the name of one’s own religion – that is, in the name of God,” Francis said. “To kill in the name of God is an aberration.” > > But then the pope began to outline what he sees as important limits on free expression. Francis began by joking that if someone were to swear against his mother, “a punch awaits him.” > > Continuing more seriously, the pope said: “One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people’s faith, one cannot make fun of faith.” > > “There is a limit,” he said. “Every religion has its dignity.” That is, the Pope believes it’s wrong to insult or make fun of other people’s faith, but he also believes it’s wrong to commit offense/war/murder in “defense” of one’s faith against insult or abuse. Nobody but an idiot could seriously believe that he thinks that the terrorist murders of the _Charlie Hebdo_ staff were actually justified or deserved. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/603 "2016-08-02T05:19:45Z")
Popes haven’t been directly involved in murder for a very long time. Years and years. John XXIII strangled a couple of Nazis, but that doesn’t really count. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/604 "2016-08-02T05:20:25Z")
JPII almost was, but on the receiving side. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/605 "2016-08-02T06:14:06Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > JPII almost was, but on the receiving side. And aren’t there some questions about JPI’s swift exit? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/606 "2016-08-02T07:01:49Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Cite? > **[On Charlie Hebdo Pope Francis is using the wife-beater’s defence | Polly Toynbee](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/16/pope-francis-free-speech-charlie-hebdo)** > > Polly Toynbee: Yes, free speech has always had its limits – but verbal provocation is never an excuse for violence > [@](#): > > On the day another cartoonist victim was buried at Père Lachaise cemetery, the pope came as near as dammit to suggesting that Charlie Hebdo had it coming. “One cannot provoke; one cannot insult other people’s faith; one cannot make fun of faith,” he said. > > Oh yes, you can. You may not choose to. It may not be wise or polite or kind – but you can. And to show you can, without being gunned down, Charlie Hebdo has just gone on sale in the UK, in bolder outlets, proudly defiant with an image of Muhammad on the cover – though with a tear and a kindly thought: “All is forgiven.” > > The pope pointed to his aide as he said “If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It’s normal. It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.” > > No, it’s not normal to punch someone who insults you; the pope’s Christ certainly didn’t think so. Verbal provocation is never an excuse for violence – that’s the wife-beater’s defence. > > Is he saying we must respect any old cult: followers of Black Sabbath, Odin, Scientology, astrology? Or is it the size of a faith that earns it the right to gag mockery? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/607 "2016-08-02T08:47:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > He also said the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had it coming. Fuck that guy. Wow. I suppose I should’ve asked you if you cared to make a comment that wasn’t bigoted and dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/608 "2016-08-02T11:58:26Z")
It’s remarkable that a guy who wants his audience to calmly and respectfully consider his _suggestion_ that the forced ghettoization of French Muslims might be a reasonable response to some undefined but looming level of terrorism in Europe can also fail to distinguish any subtleties of meaning in those interview responses from the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/609 "2016-08-02T12:43:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [On Charlie Hebdo Pope Francis is using the wife-beater’s defence | Polly Toynbee | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/16/pope-francis-free-speech-charlie-hebdo) I doubt that you even realize that the pope’s statement, (taken out of context, here), does not say what you claimed. Those people really owe you a refund. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/610 "2016-08-02T12:48:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody but an idiot could seriously believe that he thinks that the terrorist murders of the _Charlie Hebdo_ staff were actually justified or deserved. Aw, c’mon. Idiot? He’s a member of the 999 Club! Did he tell you that? It’s a club for really smart people! (An idea I love, incidentally, this club nobody’s heard of. Some schmucks thought, “What’s a niche we can fleece?” and answered, “What about dumbshits who scored high on standardized tests and feel deeply insecure about their intelligence? I bet THEY’D pay money for some reassurance!”) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/611 "2016-08-02T12:58:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I doubt that you even realize that the pope’s statement, (taken out of context, here), does not say what you claimed. Those people really owe you a refund. Nah, they don’t. Remember the old maxim, \*“Caveat bardus.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/612 "2016-08-02T14:28:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > “Caveat bardus.” (For those non-Latin-speakers: “Look out, there’s a musician!”) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/613 "2016-08-02T14:43:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > (For those non-Latin-speakers: “Look out, there’s a musician!”) Evidently, the online translator I used wasn’t up to translating “Let the stupid beware”. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/614 "2016-08-02T15:18:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Evidently, the online translator I used wasn’t up to translating “Let the stupid beware”. I think _asinus_ would be a more common use than _bardus_. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/615 "2016-08-02T16:08:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I doubt that you even realize that the pope’s statement, (taken out of context, here), does not say what you claimed. Those people really owe you a refund. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Aw, c’mon. Idiot? He’s a member of the 999 Club! Did he tell you that? It’s a club for really smart people! > > (An idea I love, incidentally, this club nobody’s heard of. Some schmucks thought, “What’s a niche we can fleece?” and answered, “What about dumbshits who scored high on standardized tests and feel deeply insecure about their intelligence? I bet THEY’D pay money for some reassurance!”) Love both those posts. I came in here to comment on the OP’s idiotic claim that the Pope said Charlie Hebdo “had it coming”, but I see that my betters have done it better, and sooner. **LHoD** , it’s a shame we get into occasional rather bitter bickering over language issues, because otherwise I not only agree with you most of the time, but I admire this kind of expressive fluency. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/616 "2016-08-02T16:34:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > **LHoD** , it’s a shame we get into occasional rather bitter bickering over language issues, because otherwise I not only agree with you most of the time, but I admire this kind of expressive fluency. 🙂 Us? Bicker? NEVER! (Likewise; we’re mostly in agreement. You know what they say about academia: the politics are so nasty because the stakes are so low. The same thing may apply here sometimes.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/617 "2016-08-02T18:01:17Z")
So, you’re going to overlook all that stuff he said about your Mom? Well, OK, i guess… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/618 "2016-08-02T18:03:56Z")
> **[Amid Calls To End 'Honor Killings' In Pakistan, More Women Murdered](https://www.npr.org/2016/08/01/488191830/amid-calls-to-end-honor-killings-in-pakistan-more-women-murdered)** > > The government says new laws could be passed within weeks. Will they work? The celebrity murdered by her brother last month was from a traditional farming community where there's deep skepticism. > [@](#): > > RENEE MONTAGNE, HOST: > > And every year in Pakistan, hundreds of women are killed in what’s known as honor killings. Now a high-profile honor killing has people in Pakistan focusing on how to end this practice. A social media star there called Qandeel Baloch was strangled by her brother because he was upset by her sexually provocative and very popular videos and selfies. NPR’s Philip Reeves traveled to the region where she’s from. > > PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: It’s a summer’s day in south Punjab. Village boys frolic in a muddy canal. We’re in the middle of Pakistan in the countryside. Amid the mango trees and sugarcane, there are mud hovels and Sufi shrines. In cyberspace, Qandeel Baloch was about mischief and glamour. The performer, using girl power to champion women’s rights in a new age. Yet she came from the old world, a place of poverty and illiteracy, where feudal tradition often supersedes the law of the land. When Qandeel’s brother appeared unrepentantly before the TV cameras and said he had murdered her, there was an international outcry. > > UNIDENTIFIED MEN: (Speaking Urdu). > > REEVES: Around here, men see things a little differently. > > SHABBIR AHMED: (Through interpreter) Here, old customs and traditions rule. > > REEVES: Shabbir Ahmed, a small time landowner, is sheltering from the sun in a village tea shop. > > AHMED: (Through interpreter) We think this murder is justified. The point is we’re Muslims, and she crossed a line. > > REEVES: “That’s right,” says Ghulam Yassin, a carpenter. > > GHULAM YASSIN: (Speaking Urdu). > > REEVES: Do you think that would be the view of most people here? > > YASSIN: (Through interpreter) Yes. > > REEVES: And everybody’s nodding.[…] > > REEVES: Munir was stunned. She sometimes saw Qandeel through her window. > > MUNIR: (Through interpreter) She seemed happy. > > REEVES: Munir wants Qandeel’s brother jailed for life. She also wants an end to honor killings, though she thinks that’ll be very difficult to achieve. > > MUNIR: (Through interpreter) Our family and caste rules means people don’t give the government information. People sort out matters in jirgas and cover things up. What can the government do? > > REEVES: Pakistan’s human rights commission keeps count of honor killings. It says since Qandeel Baloch’s murder, just over two weeks ago, there have been 20. And those are the ones we know about. Philip Reeves, NPR News, Multan. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/619 "2016-08-02T18:28:53Z")
What proposition of yours are you supporting, or conversely, what assertion of any of your critics in this thread are you attempting to refute with that citation? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950/620 "2016-08-02T19:10:59Z")
I think anyone with even a modicum of perspicacity can draw the obvious inference. If, that is, they are not being willfully obtuse (“There are none so blind…”). > [@](#): > > AHMED: (Through interpreter) We think this murder is justified. The point is we’re Muslims, and she crossed a line. > > REEVES: “That’s right,” says Ghulam Yassin, a carpenter. > > GHULAM YASSIN: (Speaking Urdu). > > REEVES: Do you think that would be the view of most people here? > > YASSIN: (Through interpreter) Yes. > > REEVES: And everybody’s nodding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-more-attacks-before-the-west-has-to-consider-the-previously-unthinkable/759950.md?page=32)