# How many on the left are really anti-GMO? Anti-vax? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2017, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440 "2017-09-04T01:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/81 "2017-09-05T04:10:20Z")
> [@Sasquatch](#): > > The labeling issue sounds logical, but the whole point is to create a Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt cloud over GMO. To be rational and thorough, every risk associated with the food should be printed on the package. In a font size proportional to the annual deaths per year - so big font for pesticides and bacteria contamination risks, smaller for allergy or other risks, and apparently 0 size font for GMO so far. I’d guess most foods would probably have “choking hazard” as the largest warning though. I don’t actually disagree with you, but [here’s another perspective on it](https://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/gmo/legislation_en). Would you say that the whole of the EU is engaged in a conspiracy to spread FUD about GMOs? Why? ISTM that they’re just exercising an abundance of caution, and are not nearly as subject to the lobbying of special interests as we are here. I do tend to agree with you in some respects, though. Mandatory GMO labeling is one of the issues on which I’ve considerably moderated my position. I tend to agree that it’s not particularly useful since there is such a broad spectrum of GM and a lot of risk overlap between GM and non-GM substances, and such labeling will tend to be misinterpreted. As much as I distrust the malign lobbyists of the agribusiness and food conglomerates, there is at least some element of self-interested lobbying on the “organic” front, too. I now believe – as I just said [upthread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20458834&postcount=77) – that the imperative for protecting the public interest on GMOs should be on science-based regulation and oversight and its essential prerequisites, transparency and full disclosure. At the present time, the consumer label may not be the place for that. However in the future there may be unique GM processes which pass the threshold of regulatory approval but whose identification on the label serve a useful public interest. And you can be assured that millions of dollars will be spent by vested interests to buy all the right Congress critters and bamboozle their constituents to prevent this from happening. My greatest and historically very well justified fear is that in the US, in matters like this, corporate money and lobbyists tend to prevail over the public interest – maybe not forever, but for an unconscionably long time. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/82 "2017-09-05T09:50:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Possibly. I did some Googling and found quotes such as this: > > To me, that sounds like triggered sterility. > > In any case…all I really had to say on the matter was in my first post. The well was poisoned, early on, by companies such as Monsanto making this kind of thing known. It led many of us to have early worries about GMO foods. I’m none too happy having to rely upon a promise by a major chemicals corporation… No possibily - it is 100 clear you misunderstood. The traiit, it is a unique genetic trait that needs to be inserted, there is nothing there about triggering. the trait of the second generation sterility is simply not used. there is no ‘triggering.’ The existing seeds do not use it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/83 "2017-09-05T09:54:17Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I don’t actually disagree with you, but [here’s another perspective on it](https://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/gmo/legislation_en). Would you say that the whole of the EU is engaged in a conspiracy to spread FUD about GMOs? Why? The internal politics in the EU and anti-american inclined protectionist tendency. It is not ‘conspriacy’ it is the decision making by the left tendancies who have been duped by the kinds of thinking displayed in this thread. it is funny there is to ‘concern’ about the gmo process but the same persons use without thinkiing the foods and the seeds modified radiologically or by chemical induced mutagenisis processes… dominant practices outside of the gmo field for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/84 "2017-09-05T10:43:35Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > No possibily - it is 100 clear you misunderstood. > > The traiit, it is a unique genetic trait that needs to be inserted, there is nothing there about triggering. > > the trait of the second generation sterility is simply not used. there is no ‘triggering.’ The existing seeds do not use it. This may be a linguistic misunderstanding: when you say, " possibly with an alternative approach of the chemical turn on the desirable trait with a post growth chemical enactor," that’s pretty opaque, but it sounds like you’re describing what others are describing as a trigger. [Here’s a descriptor](http://discovermagazine.com/2003/aug/featgenes): > [@](#): > > To create plants with the plant-sterilizing “terminator” trait, researchers put the required genes into a bacterium that will then infect [the pictured] developing tissue. The next step is to select plant cells that carry the desired genes and cultivate them. B: The resulting seedlings grow up to be plants that bear seed carrying the terminator trait. But the terminator trait is dormant until the seed is exposed to an activating agent, tetracycline. To implement this system commercially, the seed companies would cultivate plants bearing the terminator trait normally and harvest their seed. The plant-sterilizing trait, however, would be activated only in seed that is sold to farmers. > … > Oliver’s terminator system follows this protocol, with a few twists. Instead of one foreign gene, it uses three from three different organisms to yield plants that produce seed with the terminator trait. But the terminator system is dormant until this seed is soaked in the antibiotic tetracycline. Tetracycline exposure triggers a byzantine sequence of molecular events that allow the treated seed to flourish yet halt the germination of seed in the next generation. In other words, the treated seed can produce seed, but this new seed, while preserving its nutritive value and other commercially relevant attributes, can’t produce new plants. Likewise, any seed derived from plants fertilized by terminator pollen won’t germinate. A moment’s thought makes it clear that there has to be a trigger. Otherwise, scientists would need to re-engineer this crop ahead of every growing season and for each plant that will produce seed to sell to farmers. It’s worth remembering that terminator technology isn’t used–because of an international outcry. In this instance, opposition to a specific GMO technology was both rational and successful. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/85 "2017-09-05T12:51:30Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The politically active anti-GMO groups that I know of are all on the left, like Greenpeace and Bernie Sanders. Generally true - just as politicians who are anti-vaccine tend heavily to be right wing (examples are Michele Bachmann and Rand Paul). Rank and file opposition to both splits fairly evenly between Left and Right. Meantime, virulent anti-GMOers and antivaxers use [virtually identical fallacies, memes and tactics](https://geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/B8uPan8IAAEhB5Q.jpg-large.jpeg) to advance their agendas. > [@asahi](#): > > Being cautiously anti-GMO is not at all irrational given the lack of good science supporting its safe use. [Really?](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/national-academy-of-sciences-report-on-gmos/) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/86 "2017-09-05T14:27:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Possibly. I did some Googling and found quotes such as this: > > To me, that sounds like triggered sterility. > > In any case…all I really had to say on the matter was in my first post. The well was poisoned, early on, by companies such as Monsanto making this kind of thing known. It led many of us to have early worries about GMO foods. I’m none too happy having to rely upon a promise by a major chemicals corporation… There were some variants of the ‘terminator’ gene that were triggered by tetracycline, yes: [http://discovermagazine.com/2003/aug/featgenes/](http://discovermagazine.com/2003/aug/featgenes/) Again, the fact that it causes sterility (constitutively) means by definition its spread into other populations is going to be very limited. A variant can increase in frequency by mutation, horizontal gene transfer, drift, or by reproduction. Reproduction is by far the most common way that a variation spreads. These sterile plants by definition can’t reproduce, so the spread of the gene into any non-target population would be very limited. as the article points out: “Groups like ETC and the Environmental Defense Fund, however, oppose the terminator system. In addition to their concerns about subsistence farmers, environmentalists worry that the terminator gene could castrate wild relatives of cultivated plants by spreading through pollen. Oliver points out that contaminated plants wouldn’t survive past a single generation, so the problem would be nipped in the bud. But to environmentalists, the prospect of even a single generation of terminator victims is noxious, and with repeated plantings, they fear, the cycle of thwarted propagation would continue, with unknown consequences.” The whole advantage of these ‘teriminator’ sequences is that they severely limit the ability of transgenes to spread into non target populations, which is something that critics of GM rightly point out as a risk. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/87 "2017-09-05T14:32:12Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The terminator gene will get mixed into the heritage crop, eventually causing a successive planting to fail. You may make a plant sterile, but that will not stop it from going through the reproductive cycle. > > Which may be largely moot. If AgriCorp holds a patent on that crop, Farmer Lou is legally prohibited from growing it as a heritage crop from saved seeds (this is a WTO rule that crosses all borders and is not subject to any kind of democratic review). If 5% of Farmer Lou’s plants are sterile b/c of contamination, it’s not really a problem since Farmer Lou probably isn’t going to be saving seed anyway. Even if he did save seed, however, it also wouldn’t be a long term problem. 5% of the first generation would be sterile, but of course those plants would leave no progeny, so in the second generation none of the plants would carry the sterility gene. As for your second points, patents expire after a period of time (fortunately), and the first generation Roundup Ready varieties are no longer under patent. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/88 "2017-09-05T14:45:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Sasquatch** : > > Like sevenwood noted, Roundup costs more per pound than wheat, spraying it on a wheat crop to increase weight is ridiculous. In the reportedly rare cases Roundup is sprayed on wheat as a dessicant to speed up harvest, the whole point is to kill the wheat plant - which makes the conflation of “roundup-ready” and “spraying Roundup on wheat” pretty bogus. If it was Roundup ready wheat, it wouldn’t be killed by spraying it with Roundup, so they wouldn’t be doing that anyway. And farmers could use that technique all they like, and they still wouldn’t have to label their crops as GMO. Now, if we had my hypothetical “Monsanto-free” labeling, then those crops could _not_ be labeled Monsanto-free, because Roundup is a Monsanto product. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/89 "2017-09-05T15:42:03Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If 5% of Farmer Lou’s plants are sterile b/c of contamination, it’s not really a problem since Farmer Lou probably isn’t going to be saving seed anyway. In the third world, seed-saving is far more common. One of the reasons terminator technology was justly (IMO) opposed is that there was a risk that it’d be coupled with other technology that would drive down crop prices, meaning that subsistence farmers would be forced to buy Monsanto products in order to stay competitive, but the lack of seed-saving would require additional capital outlays beyond the reach of small farmers, and so lots of subsistence farmers would be forced to sell their lands to wealthier farmers or corporations, and you’d eventually get something like a sharecropping system replacing patchworks of small independent farmers. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/90 "2017-09-05T19:23:20Z")
> [@Sasquatch](#): > > The labeling issue sounds logical, but the whole point is to create a Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt cloud over GMO. To be rational and thorough, every risk associated with the food should be printed on the package. You seem to assuming that perceived risk is the only reason for a label. A number of people choose to be vegetarians. I don’t think it’s because they think meat will kill you. Some people may wish to abstain from eating GMO foods for similar reasons of personal conviction, belief that it leads to environmental harm, etc. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/91 "2017-09-05T20:10:27Z")
I’m pretty lefty, and am vehemently opposed to anti-vaxxers. The best way to get to where we don’t have to vaccinate is by driving the diseases in question out of existence, like we’ve done for smallpox. But getting there involves…vaccination. My take on GMOs is a bit more complex. First of all, ISTM that a lot of that is about resistance to pesticides, e.g. “Roundup Ready” crops. The problem is, you eventually get Roundup-resistant insects, blights, etc., and a cycle of pesticide escalation. Also, I gather there are questions about how insects we’d kind of like to keep around, like butterflies and honeybees, deal with the wholesale application of Roundup and whatnot. For these reasons, I want GMO labeling. Also because the companies involved have fought it. When people whose interests don’t coincide with yours want to hide information from you, my attitude - call it knee-jerk if you want - is that I want that info. I’m against a GMO ban, but if they can’t live with GMO labeling, what’s their problem? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/92 "2017-09-05T20:38:41Z")
It is a strange world where the insects become resistent to the **herbicides**. A well informed position and rationale, that is clear… Of course it is for this kind of informed rationale that a ratoinale company would not want to label something where the product is in fact in competition with the “non-GMO” that is genetically manipulated by radiological and chemical inducers (as has been the case since the 1930s…). so it is clear for all the superiority about openness to science posturing that many of the Left do on the climate side, it is not really any different, the tribal rationales. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/93 "2017-09-05T20:45:31Z")
I’m OK with labelling GMO as long as crops developed by radiological anbd chemical bombardment are also labelled. Funny how the ‘organic’ market isn’t so keen on that labelling. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/94 "2017-09-05T20:57:56Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I’m OK with labelling GMO as long as crops developed by radiological anbd chemical bombardment are also labelled. > > Funny how the ‘organic’ market isn’t so keen on that labelling. I have never, ever seen the debate framed that way. But my hunch is that if such a proposal were put forward, most of the people who want GMO labeling would not have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/95 "2017-09-05T21:19:02Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course it is for this kind of informed rationale that a ratoinale company would not want to label something where the product is in fact in competition with the “non-GMO” that is genetically manipulated by radiological and chemical inducers (as has been the case since the 1930s…). But they don’t get a free pass either, it’s because of produce that has been “genetically manipulated by radiological and chemical inducers” (among other reasons) that the organic and neighbor farmer craze has happened. People want to know what they’re putting in their mouths! and simply saying “don’t worry, science says it’s not harmful” is not good enough!! You don’t get to make those choices for everybody. mc ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/96 "2017-09-05T21:20:33Z")
Amusing, this is the opinion of the American right about the Climate Change… of course the organic idea is almost 100 per cent Woo Woo. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/97 "2017-09-05T21:23:04Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > I have never, ever seen the debate framed that way. But my hunch is that if such a proposal were put forward, most of the people who want GMO labeling would not have a problem with it. The people behind the poeple who want GMO labelling is the Organic industry and they sure as shit don’t want those other labels to be mandatory. [http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/266524-the-gmo-labeling-movement-is-as-organic-as-a-twinkie](http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/266524-the-gmo-labeling-movement-is-as-organic-as-a-twinkie) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/98 "2017-09-05T21:31:09Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > But they don’t get a free pass either, it’s because of produce that has been “genetically manipulated by radiological and chemical inducers” (among other reasons) that the organic and neighbor farmer craze has happened. People want to know what they’re putting in their mouths! and simply saying “don’t worry, science says it’s not harmful” is not good enough!! You don’t get to make those choices for everybody. > > mc The organic farming industry uses radiological and chemical genetic manipulation all the time. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/99 "2017-09-05T21:31:59Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The people behind the poeple who want GMO labelling is the Organic industry and they sure as shit don’t want those other labels to be mandatory. > > [http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/266524-the-gmo-labeling-movement-is-as-organic-as-a-twinkie](http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/266524-the-gmo-labeling-movement-is-as-organic-as-a-twinkie) The organic industry isn’t that large. The vast, vast majority of people who _support_ GMO labeling are not the organic industry. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/100 "2017-09-05T21:33:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > But they don’t get a free pass either, it’s because of produce that has been “genetically manipulated by radiological and chemical inducers” (among other reasons) that the organic and neighbor farmer craze has happened. I think you missed the point - the people who are against GMO seem to have no problem with cultivars that are manipulated with those other methods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440.md?page=6)