# How many on the left are really anti-GMO? Anti-vax? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2017, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440 "2017-09-04T01:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/121 "2017-09-06T16:10:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Look, I don’t approve of public paranoia about nefarious “Big Industry” conspiracies and stubborn disregard for scientific findings either. But it’s stupid to act as though corporate endangerment of workers and consumers is just a matter of a few quaint little archaic stories from the history books hyped up to “play the Corporate Fear card”. Feel free to invoke corporate malfeasance when it trumps the 2000+ research studies validating GM food safety (many of which are independent of industry). But nothing in your post addresses this. “We can’t trust Big Whatever” is sloganeering without substance.\* > [@wolfpup](#): > > Frankly, ISTM that anything other than enthusiastic unconditional support for all biotechnology, present and future, causes you to pop out of the woodwork with scathing attacks on the slightest suggestion for caution and prudent regulation Continued mischaracterization of my position (along with playing the corporate shill gambit) doesn’t improve your credibility. My support for biotech has never been “unconditional”. It’s a valuable tool in agriculture, with benefits that have greatly outweighed drawbacks. Attacks on it which are not based on good science and practical applicability are worthless. _While fearmongering over corporate influence is a hallmark of evidence-challenged left-wing anti-GMOers, it is not exclusive to them. Far-right faves like Alex Jones and Mike Adams (of NaturalNews fame) have hopped on that bandwagon too. And here’s a stirring anti-corporate anti-GMO diatribe_\* from the good folks at [Liberty Beacon](http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/monsanto-big-ag-colonizing-africa-criminalizing-traditional-seed-exchanges/) (who also warn against vaccines, “psy-ops”, the Russians creating Hurricane Harvey, cellphones causing sterility and brain cancer etc.etc). Personally, I’d find it embarrassing to have bedfellows like that. But if you don’t mind, hop on over and give 'em more of the blankets. 😃 \*\*For those who believe the trope that GMOs are bad for Africa because of Big Corporate, it’s far more the case that [well-off anti-GMO Westerners are doing the exploiting.](https://capx.co/how-the-eu-starves-africa-into-submission/) And a lot of biotech projects [are being developed in Africa](http://nepad-abne.net/biotechnology/development-of-genetically-modified-crops-in-africa/), by Africans. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/122 "2017-09-06T16:33:24Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Becasue frankly there is no reason either should be listed. Neither is a real threat but GMO has had a deliverate scare campaign complete with faked science aimed at it by rivals and fear mongerers. > > I don’t like giving into fear mongerers, even when you try to sweeten the sewer emissions they sell by labelling it ‘customer choice’ and ‘informed customer’. Its pandering to a fer market and frankly you the customer doesn’t always need to know how the sausage is made, as long as it is made safely. > > So bringing up Radiological MO labelling is purely a defensive tactic. Its pulled out because the primary backers of GMO labelling is the orgranic market and they suddenly get very shy when this is proposed. But the people bringing up Radiological MOs don’t have a vested interest in it because they _know it is safe_ and don’t have a finincial interest in fearmongering a competitor’s crop modification methods. I don’t agree that it’s necessarily fearmongering. This is reminding me of the debate over “no rBST” labels on dairy products. I don’t think milk produced from rBST-treated cows is going to cause me any harm, but I appreciate the labels and the consumer pressure because I simply don’t agree with the practice. Free market types are always saying that if we disagree with certain practices or conduct, we should vote with our wallets. But our ability to do so requires information. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/123 "2017-09-06T17:10:44Z")
The folks who want your business are free to provide that information. Labeling should be forced when it addresses a real public health problem. There are any number of voluntary certifications available. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/124 "2017-09-06T18:16:13Z")
What the hell is radiological modification? Radiology/irradiation, AFAIK, may be used to eliminate harmful microbes. Other than that, how is it used to modify crops/livestock/products? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/125 "2017-09-06T18:18:35Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > I don’t agree that it’s necessarily fearmongering. That might have been plausible, were the movement not using fear-mongering articles, fake-scary science ‘stidues’, and all-around scare tactics to support its position. But they do, so it is fearmongering. > [@](#): > > This is reminding me of the debate over “no rBST” labels on dairy products. I don’t think milk produced from rBST-treated cows is going to cause me any harm, but I appreciate the labels and the consumer pressure because I simply don’t agree with the practice. Free market types are always saying that if we disagree with certain practices or conduct, we should vote with our wallets. But our ability to do so requires information. The people who want to mark their proucts ‘No-GMO’ are free to do so. Do not force the ones who do use GMO somewhere in their process to apply a scarlet letter because of the fear machine. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/126 "2017-09-06T18:21:52Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What the hell is radiological modification? Radiology/irradiation, AFAIK, may be used to eliminate harmful microbes. Other than that, how is it used to modify crops/livestock/products? > **[Mutation breeding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding)** > > Mutation breeding, sometimes referred to as "variation breeding", is the process of exposing seeds to chemicals, radiation, or enzymes in order to generate mutants with desirable traits to be bred with other cultivars. Plants created using mutagenesis are sometimes called mutagenic plants or mutagenic seeds. > From 1930 to 2014 more than 3200 mutagenic plant varieties were released that have been derived either as direct mutants (70%) or from their progeny (30%). Crop plants account for 75% of re... ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/127 "2017-09-06T19:06:13Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > That might have been plausible, were the movement not using fear-mongering articles, fake-scary science ‘stidues’, and all-around scare tactics to support its position. But they do, so it is fearmongering. > > The people who want to mark their proucts ‘No-GMO’ are free to do so. Do not force the ones who do use GMO somewhere in their process to apply a scarlet letter because of the fear machine. So would your position change if people changed their behavior? Because it sounds like your real problem is with “the movement” and not the actual issue itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/128 "2017-09-06T19:42:26Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > So would your position change if people changed their behavior? You’re going to have to be a lot more specific than that. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/129 "2017-09-06T21:09:22Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > . . .and frankly you the customer doesn’t always need to know how the sausage is made, as long as it is made safely. They absolutely get to know. It’s the one foundations of the free market. > [@](#): > > So bringing up Radiological MO labelling is purely a defensive tactic. Its pulled out because the primary backers of GMO labelling is the orgranic market and they suddenly get very shy when this is proposed. But the people bringing up Radiological MOs don’t have a vested interest in it because they _know it is safe_ and don’t have a finincial interest in fearmongering a competitor’s crop modification methods. And many of the people in my circle of friends are equally outraged that the term “organic” doesn’t legally mean what it obviously seems to mean to the average consumer. Whether they are consistent about it or not, most people are concerned about what they put in their bodies. A friend of mine quit buying canned tomatoes when she found out they were peeled with lye. The average consumer has been **led to believe** that the food they eat is not just safe - but natural. The fact that it’s not (and hasn’t been for a long time) is infuriating to many and they want to know “how the sausage is made!” mc ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/130 "2017-09-06T21:50:30Z")
One of the stated problems with GMO labeling is difficulty and expense for the makers of processed foods. Duncan Hines, for example, buys things like sugar and flour in bulk. Presumably they regularly change suppliers based on price and availability. Everytime they changed suppliers they’d have to somehow ascertain whether or not any of what they are buying contained anything that originated from GMO crops. The suppliers of those bulk products probably get their raw sources from numerous and varying suppliers, based on time of year, weather, pests, etc. So these bulk materials currently may be a varied mix of GMO and non-GMO products. So all of that will have to be sorted out all of the way down the supply chain and box labeling will have to change depending on what’s available. This adds extra costs for everybody, even those without unscientific fears. Also, I suspect it would require renegotiation of trade treaties to somehow assure that we know the status of imported goods, and can we ever realistically know for sure? Sellers might simply label everything they’re not sure about with “may contain GMO products” but that kills the whole point, and you can bet that there’d be people raising hell about how there should be better labeling. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/131 "2017-09-06T21:54:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m curious…just how large is the group on the left in the US or Europe who are really, genuinely opposed to GMOs and vaccines? It is worth noting that opposition to GMOs and vaccines is not really indicated by a left or right political ideology. Both groups have strong strains of opposition to these albeit for different reasons (usually). > [@](#): > > - In a 2013 paper in PLOS One, Stephan Lewandowsky and two colleagues studied what makes people reject vaccines, and got a complicated result. Namely, they found that while political conservatism made people somewhat more pro-vaccine, having a free market ideology led in the opposite direction — towards having more vaccine skepticism. > > “Opposition to vaccinations involved a balance between two opposing forces, namely a negative association with free-market endorsement and a compensatory positive association with conservatism,” wrote the authors. “The different polarity of those associations is consonant with the notion that libertarians object to the government intrusion arising from mandatory vaccination programs, whereas people low on conservatism — who, by implication, are liberal or progressive — may oppose immunization because they distrust pharmaceutical companies.” > > But really, political ideology didn’t have a large overall impact on vaccine denial in the study. The study found that the really big contributor to distrusting or disliking vaccines was not political ideology ideology at all, but rather, having a conspiratorial mindset, which can occur on both the left and the right. > > SOURCE: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/26/the-biggest-myth-about-vaccine-deniers-that-theyre-all-a-bunch-of-hippie-liberals/?utm\_term=.50e57ccd86f6](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/26/the-biggest-myth-about-vaccine-deniers-that-theyre-all-a-bunch-of-hippie-liberals/?utm_term=.50e57ccd86f6) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/132 "2017-09-06T21:55:45Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What the hell is radiological modification? Radiology/irradiation, AFAIK, may be used to eliminate harmful microbes. Other than that, how is it used to modify crops/livestock/products? Radiation is commonly used to induce new genetic mutations (in a random/undirected fashion), and the small subset of these mutations which are beneficial can then be selected to form new cultivars. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/133 "2017-09-06T22:21:56Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > They absolutely get to know. It’s the one foundations of the free market. They are free to find out, by all means, but that doesn’t mean one sausage maker is forced to put graphic photos of the process on their packaging while the other maker has no such obligation. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/134 "2017-09-06T23:16:49Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > . . .So these bulk materials currently may be a varied mix of GMO and non-GMO products. . . > > . . . and can we ever realistically know for sure? > > Sellers might simply label everything they’re not sure about with “may contain GMO products” . . . “Because it’s hard” is not a reason. and that last part is exactly how they do it for some allergens such as soy, lactose, and gluten. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/135 "2017-09-06T23:42:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > … Sellers might simply label everything they’re not sure about with “may contain GMO products” … Yes. > [@davidm](#): > > … but that kills the whole point, and you can bet that there’d be people raising hell about how there should be better labeling. IIRC, similar labels were in use in California several decades ago (“may contain carcinogenics”). Consumers viewed the uselessness of such labels as more of a joke than a serious problem. If some group of consumers are willing to pay a premium for foods that do _not_ have a “may contain GMO’s” label, I don’t have a problem with that free market. Even if that group is large enough to reduce the economy’s overall nutrition/cost ratio, it would just be another of a variety of inefficiencies due to consumer ignorances. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/136 "2017-09-06T23:46:37Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > “Because it’s hard” is not a reason. and that last part is exactly how they do it for some allergens such as soy, lactose, and gluten. Of course it’s a reason. How is it not? The question is whether or not it’s a _valid_ reason. I would maintain that it is when you’re talking about something that’s being done to assuage baseless fears. It’s not the same as soy, lactose, and gluten. We know which foodstuffs contain those things. Soy contains soy. Wheat and some other grains contain gluten. Milk contains lactose. A manufacturer knows if he’s adding any of those things. Plus, I’m pretty sure that all of those things can be detected by lab tests. There is no general test for GMO. Flour, sugar, grains, etc. may or may not be GMO and, since highly processed products like flour and sugar contain no genes, there’s no way to know other than to take the word of the supplier, who has to take the word of his sources, etc. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/137 "2017-09-06T23:55:26Z")
Then the sensible approach would be to allow “No GMO Content”, and everything else would be assumed to have, or possibly have, GMO sources. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/138 "2017-09-07T00:21:00Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Then the sensible approach would be to allow “No GMO Content”, and everything else would be assumed to have, or possibly have, GMO sources. Which is the situation we have now. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/139 "2017-09-07T02:24:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > _While fearmongering over corporate influence is a hallmark of evidence-challenged left-wing anti-GMOers, it is not exclusive to them. Far-right faves like Alex Jones and Mike Adams (of NaturalNews fame) have hopped on that bandwagon too. And here’s a stirring anti-corporate anti-GMO diatribe_\* from the good folks at [Liberty Beacon](http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/monsanto-big-ag-colonizing-africa-criminalizing-traditional-seed-exchanges/) (who also warn against vaccines, “psy-ops”, the Russians creating Hurricane Harvey, cellphones causing sterility and brain cancer etc.etc). > Personally, I’d find it embarrassing to have bedfellows like that. But if you don’t mind, hop on over and give 'em more of the blankets. 😃 “Bedfellows”? I’ve never heard of Mike Adams and I’ve never quoted Alex Jones on anything except maybe to ridicule his complete insanity, so your claim that they are “bedfellows” of mine is false and ridiculous. You, OTOH,[just recently quoted Bjorn Lomborg](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20341993&postcount=112) who you must regard as a sterling source of impeccable credentials. You quote him waxing with enthusiastic praise about the introduction of genetically modified golden rice in the Phillipines, and castigating GMO opponents for all the delays, [a claim which is almost completely false](https://source.wustl.edu/2016/06/genetically-modified-golden-rice-falls-short-lifesaving-promises/). You forgot to mention that Lomborg is also a climate “skeptic” and borderline denier who has ranted against climate science using false and specious talking points from the worst of the right-wing playbook; that he actually knows no more about climate change than he does about biotech; that he’s a business prof with a lucrative sideline as a corporate shill; that he’s a proven liar who [was hauled in front of a Danish government committee on charges of scientific dishonesty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B8rn_Lomborg#Formal_accusations_of_scientific_dishonesty). With all respect, I think you should pay closer attention to your own actual bedfellows before trying to smear others with allegations about non-existent ones. Some of the statements I’ve made about prudent GMO regulation are mild compared to what’s actually being done in Europe, and some are practically verbatim from the report of the Royal Society of Canada on the regulation of food biotechnology. Neither the EU nor the Royal Society of Canada nor Health Canada to which the report was submitted are followers of Alex Jones, as far as I know. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440/140 "2017-09-07T02:54:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Feel free to invoke corporate malfeasance Oh, I don’t specifically invoke it unless I see actual instances of it. At present, I’m just criticizing your misleading attempt to portray it as nothing but a quaint archaic practice that has no relevance to today’s world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-on-the-left-are-really-anti-gmo-anti-vax/795440.md?page=8)