# How many people are you willing to kill so you don't have to wear a mask? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310 "2020-06-27T01:06:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/61 "2020-06-29T21:50:58Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > I didn’t forget the sarcasm tag. If a small number of murders could eliminate the need for wearing masks (i.e., there’s no highly fatal communicable disease that would be spread by not wearing them) then it probably should be done. But yes, if it came to me to do it, it would be entirely reasonable for me to take my share of the burden and be one of them. If a small number of people could be killed and that would get rid of all the infected, then maybe that would be worth it. (No.) But I did accidentally omit a word in the title. I should have said “innocent people”, because my question is not about eliminating sick people, my question is about responsibility for your own actions that contribute to the virus spread, and the ramifications of that spreading virus. > [@Balthisar](#): > > There is zero possibility that I have COVID-19. I wear a mask, but that’s just because it’s easier than getting into arguments with stupid people, like the OP, who thinks that everyone must wear a mask to have societal safety. > > On the other hand, there _are_ people who have greater-than-zero possibilities of having COVID-19, and some of them probably think they have zero possibility, so might be reckless unless we apply this societal pressure to all. At least you have self-awareness. 🤨 > [@Balthisar](#): > > COVID requires close contact with people who have the virus, or with contaminated surfaces and poor hygiene, such as touching droplets and then licking your fingers. I avoid all of that; unless there is something that they’re not telling us, it’s impossible for me to have COVID. “Impossible” is a strong word. All it takes to be exposed is to be around someone else who has the virus, even if they don’t know it. Breathing in your presence releases vapor droplets that carry the virus. Inhaling brings those droplets into your sinuses and lungs. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Do you know me? My uncle and aunt died of covid. My friend David lost both his parents to covid. I’m saddened for you. I have yet to have anyone I know hit seriously by covid. I know someone at work was exposed - he had a positive test. Unfortunately, while they revealed that information, they did not reveal who it was. I have my suspicions. My sister’s aunt-in-law got really sick - she didn’t get tested, and recuperated at home, but we suspect it to have been covid. I feel lucky, as I work at Walmart, and have been working through this entire pandemic, including the shutdown. I take precautions, but I know I’m not wearing a spacesuit and I know I’m leaky on my contamination control protocols. I myself am at elevated risk, being overweight and with high blood pressure. But even more concerning, I live with my parents - dad turns 80 this weekend and mom is only a couple years behind him. So I’m very conscious of my risk. Dad has even mentioned having been concerned with all this he would make it to 80. Which is why it frustrates me so much to see people at work without masks - not just customers, but employees. And we know we’ve had covid in the store. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/62 "2020-06-29T21:51:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That quote confuses me. It says only two states are reporting a decline, but it also says they are rising in 36 states. What’s with the other 12? The article itself states the other 12 states are flat. > Cases are trekking steady in Delaware, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nebraska, New Hampshire New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota and Virginia. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > It doesn’t cost extra to post a complete sentence. He’s answering the question in the title. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/63 "2020-06-29T22:04:02Z")
As a general rule I don’t wear a mask - the only times I leave my apartment are to go to my mailbox, drop off my rent, and to visit my parents (who are sort of remotely co-sequestering with me). I’ve mostly felt that I can just keep twelve feet away from everybody while doing these things and thereby have everybody keep their own germs. However lately I’m thinking that it might be better to wear a mask whenever I so much as open my door. Partly because the other people around the complex don’t seem near as worried about keeping their distance as I am, and partially because I consider people who refuse masks for freedumb reasons to be worthless shitballs and I don’t really want to be mistaken for one of them. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/64 "2020-06-29T22:22:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > and partially because I consider people who refuse masks for freedumb reasons to be worthless shitballs and I don’t really want to be mistaken for one of them. This. Be the change you want to see. Despite their cries of “freedom!”, they’re mostly inherently followers at heart. Just not followers who’re good at selecting leaders / role models. People take their cues from the social environment around them. Where 80% are mask-wearing, the number will go up over time. And where only 20% are mask-wearing, the total will go down over time. That’s Human Nature 101. You can be a micro-leader for those around you. Do it. It’s easy. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/65 "2020-06-29T22:32:08Z")
That is definitely not the vibe I get from those types of people. They are only susceptible to peer pressure from people they consider their peers; seeing 80% of the people around them wearing masks would only convince them that they are surrounded by sheep. You don’t get rampant conspiracy theories from a group that bends to the wisdom of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/66 "2020-06-29T22:58:38Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > We have had epidemics before. We have not had masks during those epidemics. Other posters have pointed out that masks were worn during other epidemics, but let’s assume for the moment that your statement is true. It still doesn’t logically follow that no masks are needed for this pandemic: 1. This virus is not necessarily like other viruses. Sure, we don’t wear masks (in the US, at least) for flu season, but Covid 19 is more contagious and more deadly than most flu strains. 2. Maybe we’ve got resources - knowledge or physical - that we didn’t have earlier. Physicians didn’t wash their hands before surgery for a long time, because they didn’t understand that it mattered. Now we know it does. Maybe it was harder to ramp up manufacturing to make a lot of masks in past years. With modern technology, it ought to be simpler and cheaper than it would have been decades ago. 3. Maybe we should strive to do better than we did in the past. You might as well say, “we have had cars before, but we didn’t always have laws about using child safety seats.” So, because we didn’t try to save lives through car seats in the past, should we figure “what was good enough for past generations is good enough for me?” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/67 "2020-06-30T01:41:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > The article itself states the other 12 states are flat. okay. Other sources disagree and show most of those states declining. But I suppose this changes every time you look at it. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > People take their cues from the social environment around them. Where 80% are mask-wearing, the number will go up over time. And where only 20% are mask-wearing, the total will go down over time. That’s Human Nature 101. > > You can be a micro-leader for those around you. Do it. It’s easy. Yup. I started wearing a mask early, even when I am just walking in my neighborhood, where it’s easy to always stay 6 feet away from others, and usually stay at least 20 feet from others. (Which I do.) My feeling was that other people see me wearing a mask, and that makes it more normal to wear masks. And I want to encourage mask-wearing as a normal, neighborly thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/68 "2020-06-30T07:04:38Z")
Where I live the number of cases are dwindling, and the number of deaths due to Covid have gone way, way down. So my deal is that I wear a mask where I have to if I have to be there. For instance, stores in Denver all have signs saying you have to wear a mask. However, in a couple of nearby suburbs, they don’t have that sign, and people are about 50/50 whether they wear masks. I went into a store down there and asked the clerk if she’d feel better if I had a mask on, and she said she would, so I did. Then she got really gabby and said she was particularly worried about it because her 96-year-old mother lives with her and if she got it, that would be bad. So I guess her mother is going to live forever, unless she gets Covid. I am not worried about giving it to someone because for the most part there is not the merest chance that I have it. This weekend I did get out and about so I probably won’t be going anywhere for the next two weeks. I am not at all worried about getting it, myself. The only worry would be about inadvertently passing it along but first I’d have to get it and in light of the dropping infection rate that seems like a long shot too. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/69 "2020-06-30T12:53:40Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > So I guess her mother is going to live forever, unless she gets Covid. So I guess old people don’t matter because they’re going to die soon anyway. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/70 "2020-06-30T13:23:57Z")
Hmm, old people gonna die soon anyway . . . so _why_ can’t I shoot Grandpa? CMC ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/71 "2020-06-30T13:37:40Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > So I guess her mother is going to live forever, unless she gets Covid. Ouch! You are a sensitive soul indeed. Apart from your own locale and your own decisions, I’m curious about whether you still think **this is overblown** vis a vis the USA and/or the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/72 "2020-06-30T13:39:46Z")
Yeah, my grandmother died when she was 98. if she had died at 96, no one would have missed those last two years. /s ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/73 "2020-06-30T14:14:49Z")
I wear a mask when I’m going to a place that requires it. Actually what happens is I get to the door, mutter “goddammit”, then head back to the car to grab it. I have never worn a mask outside in a non-retail area. I don’t get out much either. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/74 "2020-06-30T14:30:13Z")
Yeah, that’s weird, but it seems it is what everyone does. I have a sign on my door that requests that people wear masks. Not mandates or requires, just a request. People get to the door, look at it, and either go back to their car to get it or just come on in without. Maybe 10% of my clients wear masks, but I am in Trump country. I have had people take exception to me wearing a mask, as well. When I point out that it is actually mandatory for us, I have been told that I can sue the governor, as he has no right to make such a rule, and that everyone who has filed such a suit has won hands down. (Like I said, I live in Trump country.) It does seem as though they are operating on a “just world” or some other belief defining reality paradigm, where if we just ignore it, and pretend it doesn’t exist, it will go away. My parents are having a cookout on the Fourth, with all the grandkids and extended family. They will not be wearing masks, and will at least pressure others into not wearing them. I have declined to attend. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/75 "2020-06-30T15:24:57Z")
At least in the county I’m living in the [decline has been major](https://www.jeffco.us/4007/COVID-19-Case-Summary) and the incidence of the disease minor. We are at a lower point in deaths per week then we were the week of March 15th. In the biggest hot spot (on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis) in my county the confirmed infection rate is 1.4%. While I’m sure that is a server undercount Colorado mostly seems to have their testing shit together so we’re probably not higher than 5% in the worst areas since we’re running about 2-3% positive tests. While a lot of my county is very rural we are the 4th most populous county in the state with over 550K people. Of course, we are seeing a spike just like everyone else and we’ve doubled our number of new cases from 10 to 20 but considered we peaked at ~80 I’m not sure how you could say we haven’t come a long way down the hillside. All of this isn’t to say that COVID is over but it is entirely rational to look around and realize there is only a 0.3% infection rate in my town and that all of the precautions aren’t required here. That being said one of the reasons that our infection rate is doing so well is that people mostly take it serious here and I’d guess less than a third don’t wear masks and it was a little shocking heading to the hot spot last weekend to go to Lowes and seeing how few people were wearing masks. We were certainly in the minority and maybe a third were wearing masks so it certainly seems to make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/76 "2020-06-30T16:02:51Z")
But the reason that the infection rate is low is because of the precautions. Remove the precautions, and the infection rate goes back up. You were right when you said that the reason that it is doing well is because people are mostly taking it seriously there. People sometimes make the comment that “only” 1xx hundred thousand have died from this, and that other things kill more that we don’t take precautions against. This is disingenuous because those hundred thousand dead are _with_ the precautions. If we had not taken them, then we are talking a much higher number, definitely several hundred thousand, maybe millions. When the infection rate in your community starts spiking, taking precautions then will be too late, and the precautions will need to be more drastic, and will be less effective, than if you had just done them from the first place. Stitch in time and all that jazz. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/77 "2020-06-30T16:21:29Z")
I agree and like I said I wear a mask but I was responding to the claim that the US has only seen meager declines and that’s not true. Further, it is rational for a single person to make the decision to not wear a mask where I live because they most likely wouldn’t encounter a anyone with COVID even shaking hands in the Home Depot parking lot. Which backs up @Hilarity_N.Suze 's point. The reason to wear masks is for other people since it both keeps you from unknowingly infecting others and help more people to feel comfortable wearing a mask in public so they are less likely to spread the disease unknowingly. It is good from a societal point of view and doesn’t harm and individual so I think more states should require it but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong or irrational for a single person to look around and say there is no chance of me catching or passing it on, it’s just bad if everyone does it. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/78 "2020-06-30T16:24:17Z")
I wear a mask EVERY time I go into a public establishment - which is pretty infrequent. So far I think it has been a garden center, grocery store, Home Depot, gas station, and golf course. I’ve not worn one on the infrequent occasions I’ve visited other peoples’ homes, or had guests in my home. I have NEVER worn one outside - golfing, walking the dog, biking/hiking on shared paths, socializing with small groups… As to how many - depends. Do I get to choose who? If so, could be a mighty high number! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lordfreeza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d9b06d/32.png) [@lordfreeza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lordfreeza)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/79 "2020-06-30T16:31:39Z")
People hate structure my brother. No matter how much sense a rule or regulation makes some one will be against it. How many lives could have been saved if nasty people actually washed their hands once in a while? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310/80 "2020-06-30T16:34:02Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > > [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > > > So I guess her mother is going to live forever, unless she gets Covid. > > So I guess old people don’t matter because they’re going to die soon anyway. Not only that, it’s the old people’s fault that they’re vulnerable to the virus. > **["We need to catch that cold!": Antivaxxers and COVID-19 deniers vs. public...](https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2020/06/29/antivaxxers-covid-19-deniers-public-health/)** > > Del Bigtree summarizes antivaxxers' and COVID-19 deniers' approach to public health: Everybody not chronically ill should catch coronavirus! Well the oppressors are trying to keep me down They make me wear a mask when they’re around And they think that they have got the battle won I say I’ll kick their ass Till the pandemic’s done [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-are-you-willing-to-kill-so-you-dont-have-to-wear-a-mask/913310.md?page=5)