# How many people did God kill in the Bible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335 "2000-01-23T20:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/61 "2000-01-27T21:50:00Z")
Excuse interruption, please. * * * David, I’m having trouble with the Atheist Religion thread. It’s taking an awful long time to display. Been waiting about five minutes or more already. Do you think the long court cases are having an effect on it? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/62 "2000-01-27T22:02:00Z")
Wait a minute. Nevermind. Must have been a glitch. It looks like the second case never posted. I’ll try it again. Thanks. * * * Back to regular thread… ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/63 "2000-01-27T22:03:00Z")
It’s working fine for me. Probably just a server burp; hit refresh a couple times. Or maybe it’s the Wrath of God, in which case pray for Him to have mercy on our poor thread. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/64 "2000-01-27T22:10:00Z")
You can see the second case? Hmmm, well it’s _still_ cogitating over in the other window, and I hit submit just maybe a couple minutes after my post here. (It was still on my clipboard and was so big that it took about fifteen seconds to paste in the textbox.) ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/65 "2000-01-27T22:14:00Z")
I can’t see the second post, but for God’s sake don’t hit the submit button twice. That’s how we get 15 65,000 word posts in a row (well, aside from Ph\*\*\*\*\*s). Trust in the UBB cgi and its servers. Check it on another browser if it times out, and if it didn’t post, _then_ try to resubmit. We _may_ have a word limit on posts, too, so you might try breaking it up. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/66 "2000-01-27T22:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Nevermind. Must have been a glitch. Lib, are you _still_ blaming everything that goes wrong on poor Glitch? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/67 "2000-01-27T22:25:00Z")
Guess I could blame a fire in my fly! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mary\_Hart\_s\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@Mary\_Hart\_s\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mary_Hart_s_Legs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/68 "2000-01-27T23:54:00Z")
If we agree that God and Yaweh are the same fella, can we add the post-biblical Waco numbers? I’ve started a, “Get some folks an ‘O’ key” fund, before the inevitable “my '-'key is worn out” complaint begins. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/69 "2000-01-28T00:10:00Z")
Mary Hart’s Legs: > [@](#): > > If we agree that God and Yaweh are the same fella, can we add the post-biblical Waco numbers? Please note the last three words in the title of this thread. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Mary\_Hart\_s\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@Mary\_Hart\_s\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mary_Hart_s_Legs)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/70 "2000-01-28T06:48:00Z")
Keller is so bright,his ‘O’ can’t wear out. Viva la’-’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/71 "2000-01-28T13:17:00Z")
CM, _all_ of the Eguptians were guilty? Not one felt bad about what happened? Not one child said to herself,“I feel bad because my friend is treated like a slave.”? This is exactly the attitude that allows the genocide of a race, the attitude of,“None of these sub-humans are worth sorting through and saving, so it’s o.k. to murder them all.” Would you mind re-thinking that statement of yours, CM, because I expected much better from you. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/72 "2000-01-29T06:00:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > CM, all of the Eguptians were guilty? Not one felt bad about what happened? Not one child said to herself,“I feel bad because my friend is treated like a slave.”? > This is exactly the attitude that allows the genocide of a race, the attitude of,“None of these sub-humans are worth sorting through and saving, so it’s o.k. to murder them all.” > Would you mind re-thinking that statement of yours, CM, because I expected much better from you. First of all, the Egyptians were not wiped out in their entirety. Second of all, it’s unlikely that the Egyptians considered the slaves their friends. Thirdly, to answer the main thrust of your point, I don’t (from a religious viewpoint) have the sound basis to question G-d’s ideas of justice. As a religious believer, that’s just one of those things I accept on faith. But the Bible hardly names any specific Egyptians, (heck, it doesn’t name that many Israelits!) so it would be a bit much to expect it to contain a census of every Egyptian first-born and a detailed justification for his death. All I can say, from my limited knowledge, was that in the broad sense, the Egyptians were a bad bunch. For me to say, “Well, what did little Thutmose from Pithom do to deserve to be included in this plague?” is just to ask a question that I know I’ll never hear the answer to. Maybe it’s an answer that would have satisfied me and you. Maybe not. In that case, I must rely on my faith to tell me it would. Of course, you can question this as much as you want and decide that the lack of an answer is not satisfactory. But you haven’t made a judgment based on hearing an answer you deemed unsatisfactory…you just don’t have an answer. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/73 "2000-01-29T06:08:00Z")
Sounds like sophistry to me, CM. I think it’s a fair assumption that not every single first-born Egyptian child was innately evil, and therefore deserving of an untimely death. But they all got wiped out anyway. (Talk about the sins of the father being visited upon the son!) It all seems pretty arbitrary and unjust to me. * * * “Every time you think you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/74 "2000-01-29T06:45:00Z")
Sheesh, is nobody willing to help me with the Sodom and Gomorrah thing? Here’s what I’ve figured out (making the totally unwarranted assumption that the cities are roughly identical in size). Step 1) What is the minimum possible population? In Genesis 18, Abraham asks God, “Suppose there were fifty innocent people in [Sodom]; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?” This question implies that fifty is only a small fraction of the total population of Sodom – perhaps a tenth at most. Also, Abraham is probably talking about adult males, the only segment of the population who seem to be judged according to their deserts. There is no indication that the women and children of Sodom have committed any misdeeds, but if (like Lot’s married daughters, whose husbands have a chance to leave but refuse) they happen to be the chattel of the wrong guy, they’re just SOL. (In fact, if women counted as people, the total number of righteous people in Sodom would be at least eight – Lot, his wife, four or more daughters, and two or more sons-in-law … enough to give the Lord serious pause.) So if we figure that adult males comprise about 1/4 of the population, we get a minimum estimate of 2,000 people in each city. Step 2) What is the maximum possible population? This is where it gets interesting. In Genesis 14, the kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar go to war against the kings of Shinar, Ellasar, Elam, and Goiim. We don’t get a whole lot of information about the relative sizes of these places, except that Zoar is a little one-horse town (Genesis 19:20). If there are 500 adult males in each of the two largest cities, perhaps there are about 100 in Zoar and the other two places, making the _minimum_ total size of the army 1,300. The army of Shinar et al. is probably the same size or larger (they win, after all, and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fall into some bitumen pits while fleeing). When Abraham hears that Lot has been captured along with the other men of Sodom, “he mustered three hundred and eighteen of his retainers, born in his house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. He and his party deployed against them at night, defeated them, and pursued them as far as Hobah.” Now, if my previous calculations are in the ballpark, Abraham and his men are outnumbered by _at least_ four to one. It’s just conceiveable that 319 men might defeat 1,300 in a surprise attack, but they surely wouldn’t be able to do anything of the sort if the army of the four kings was much bigger than the theoretical minimum. Conclusion: there are about 4,000 people in Sodom and Gomorrah, 3,996 of whom perished when the cities were destroyed. (You were expecting NYC, maybe? This is in the middle of the _desert_.) Since everybody else on this thread is so interested in the firstborn of Egypt, they can jolly well calculate their numbers themselves… * * * I think apathy, depression, irony, and confusion are damned fine ways to view a world going to hell. – Cynthia Heimel ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/75 "2000-01-28T20:03:00Z")
spoke- > [@](#): > > I think it’s a fair assumption that not every single first-born Egyptian child was innately evil, and therefore deserving of an untimely death. But they all got wiped out anyway. (Talk about the sins of the father being visited upon the son!) It all seems pretty arbitrary and unjust to me. The only way I can answer that is to say, neither of us were there, so lacking first-hand information, we’ve only got one source on which to base our opinions, and our opinions are inextricably tied to our opinions of the reliability of that source. Fretful: > [@](#): > > (You were expecting NYC, maybe? This is in the middle of the desert.) Just to be nitpicky about this, according to the Bible, Sodom wasn’t a desert area until after G-d destroyed it. Prior to the destruction, it is said to be fertile, “like the garden of G-d”. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/76 "2000-01-28T21:07:00Z")
**Seraphim** wrote that God killed an unnamed number of retreating Amorite soldiers in Joshua ch. 10. In my opinion, this hardly scratches the surface as to the number of people God killed in Joshua ch. 10 – not directly by striking them down with a holy firebolt or anything, but indirectly, by ordering the Israelite army to eradicate every living man, woman, and child in the Canaanite cities they took over. viz Joshua 10:28-40, NIV translation (emphases mine): > [@](#): > > 28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. **He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it.** He left no survivors. And he did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho. > 29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. > 30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel’s hand. **The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword.** He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho. > 31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. > 32 The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. **The city and everyone in it he put to the sword,** just as he had done to Libnah. > 33 Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his army–until no survivors were left. > 34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. > 35 They captured it that same day and **put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it** , just as they had done to Lachish. > 36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. > 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, **they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.** > 38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. > 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. **Everyone in it they totally destroyed.** They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron. > 40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. **He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.** While God didn’t kill all these civilians Himself, he did command the Israelites to do it for Him. (I suppose the Isrealites could have disobeyed, but they knew what ol’ Yahweh would have done to them if they did.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/77 "2000-01-29T01:16:00Z")
cmkeller, can you honestly assert that it is possible that _every single Egyptian first-born_ could be guilty of sins punishable by death? If that is your assertion, than you have lost any slim chance there might have been to draw me into the folds of religion. If this is what is meant by “blind faith”, I’ll just keep my eyes open, thank you very much. Such hatefulness of a large group of people is very unbecoming of you. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2000, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/78 "2000-01-29T01:50:00Z")
Oh, damn, cmk, you’re right of course. All the more reason why somebody who _actually knows something about religion_ should take over this task… * * * I think apathy, depression, irony, and confusion are damned fine ways to view a world going to hell. – Cynthia Heimel ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2000, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/79 "2000-07-22T07:14:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Satan: > > Boy, it took some digging, but I finally got you your numbers. > > **NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE KILLED BY GOD: 1** > > **NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE KILLED BY SATAN: 14,302,800,212** > > You’ll need to use a pretty small font if you want to list the names. Also, you might want to asterisk the “1” and footnote it as a suicide mitigated by a resurrection. \*\* ENITY 1 Physical animal not a supernatural being Genesis 3 : 1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made … Genesis 3 : 14 (KJV) So the Lord God said to the serpent : Because you have done this , you are cursed more than all cattle and more than every best of the field; on your belly you shall go … ENITY 2 Supernatural being the adversary ( not the Prince of darkness or a (devils plural mentioned in OT)demon or any OT false God ) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and SATAN also came among them ENITY 3 NEW Testement The Prince of This World, The Tempter, refered to numerous times too many list Therfore Only those deaths which can be laid to #3 should count … any lawyers to help on this … Sorry to bring back and old Thread but there are lots of things I wish to post this weekend and this was the perfect starting point. In the interest of my time limits excuse the shortness and seemingly randomness of this Post ---
**Author:** ![PowerpuffKue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@PowerpuffKue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PowerpuffKue)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2000, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335/80 "2000-07-22T07:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zor \* > \*\*Hrm… this is definitely an interesting idea. May I suggest the following design: > (On front of shirt) > > ``` > Divinve Kill Sheet > > ``` > > (Or any snappy title that shorter than “NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE KILLED BY GOD/SATAN”) > > God: 15,957 ----- Satan: 0 > > (Then list all of gods victim on the left, and leave the right side blank. The names will likely extend to the back of course, with the left side filled and right side empty) \*\* What it should say on the back is “Thou shal not kill???” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-did-god-kill-in-the-bible/17335.md?page=5)