# How many people in this world actually believe that the Devil is a real being with powers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237 "2018-06-01T03:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/81 "2018-06-04T07:20:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Have you read Job? Satan there is far different from the one Christians believe in. He appears to be part of God’s court for one thing. Also, though the actions are motivated by Satan’s challenge of God, God does all the bad things, not Satan. > > Remember, though God killed all of Job’s family and livestock, he got new ones back again, so everything was hunky dory. Cattle, children, wife. Looks like he kept the boils, though. [http://www.thebricktestament.com/job/god\_gives\_job\_replacement\_children\_money/jb42\_10.html](http://www.thebricktestament.com/job/god_gives_job_replacement_children_money/jb42_10.html) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/82 "2018-06-04T08:27:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do even literalists take Job as being literally true? It is unconnected from the main flow of the Bible, and seems to be clearly a moral fable. > Satan in Job is not at all like his other appearances - that would be a problem. But I can’t see even the most avid of Fundamentalists having much of a problem of seeing the story as kind of a parable, and not an accurate recording of something that happened. > [@TruCelt](#): > > I don’t believe it’s a literal story. > > But to answer your question, I have heard it argued that the story occurs before “The Fall” of Satan. He was initially one of God’s greatest angels (Lucifer, the brightest one) but questioned God’s authority and so was thrown from the firmament and became Satan. 😕 So first we have the trials of Job, then the Fall of Lucifer, and only _then_ does Lucifer/Satan tempt Eve and bring about the Fall of Adam? Does this argument for the historicity of Job hinge on the Universe undergoing a complete cycle and rebooting, and it’s on the reboot that Adam and Eve screw up the bit with the apple? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/83 "2018-06-04T08:55:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I thought about this point, but since Satan had clearly fallen before God created Adam and Eve, I don’t know how he could not have fallen years afterward when the Job story happened. > In Christian lore, that is. In Jewish lore, the snake was only a snake. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > That was no ordinary snake. I’ll say. In my _Illustrated Bible Stories for Tiny Tots_ that I had when I was a tiny tot, there was a picture of Eve in the Garden getting deceived by the snake. In the branches of the apple tree, almost unnoticeable, a spider is sitting in its web. Very clearly, for all who have noticed the spider to see, one can discern the words “SOME SNAKE” woven into the strands of the web. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/84 "2018-06-04T14:07:12Z")
All practicing Mormon believers believe Satan is a real guy. There are 15 million mormons on the books. I don’t know how many of those are “practicing believers” but I’ve heard it’s in the 30% range, with probably many of the inactives believing in Satan as well (many Mormons are converted south american Catholics, who also tend to believe in Satan). ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/85 "2018-06-04T18:47:18Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > All practicing Mormon believers believe Satan is a real guy. Not true. All practicing Mormon believers _are required to **say** _ they believe Satan is a real guy. Only some fraction of them actually believe it. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/86 "2018-06-04T18:50:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hey, the guy I was replying to said: “If one tries to say that there are certain things even a god can’t change, then suddenly all miracles are exposed as fabrications.” > > He didn’t, as far as I could tell, limit it to an \*\*\*omni-\*\*\*potent one — and, if anything, his follow-up remark seemed to cement that, no, he simply means it across the board; he seems to be saying, of any god, that: _“either this god can break the natural laws, or not. If physics or chemistry or biology were no obstacle on one occasion, there’s no reason for them to suddenly become insurmountable on the next.”_ My typing and/or my thinking was sloppy. I was concerned only with the god claimed by mainstream Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/87 "2018-06-04T19:05:39Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Not true. All practicing Mormon believers _are required to **say** _ they believe Satan is a real guy. Only some fraction of them actually believe it. That’s like saying “I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet”, but really not believing that. If you believe in Mormonism, you believe in the devil. You’re not a true believer otherwise. IIRC, there is no oath in Mormonism that you have to take to say “you believe in the devil”. But he is explicitly taught as being a real being, not metaphorical. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/88 "2018-06-04T19:52:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 😕 > > So first we have the trials of Job, then the Fall of Lucifer, and only _then_ does Lucifer/Satan tempt Eve and bring about the Fall of Adam? > > Does this argument for the historicity of Job hinge on the Universe undergoing a complete cycle and rebooting, and it’s on the reboot that Adam and Eve screw up the bit with the apple? There is a tradition that God made Lilith first, but she didn’t work out. Wanted to go to NOW meetings, and wanted a career, stuff like that. So he rebooted with Eve. So maybe. And on the Sixth Day the world failed Beta Testing, and God said “oh shit, we need to do rework” and it was not good. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/89 "2018-06-05T00:18:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There is a tradition that God made Lilith first, but she didn’t work out. That may be based on the fucked up compilation of Genesis, which puts the first two chapters in apparent conflict with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/90 "2018-06-05T01:38:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’ll say. In my _Illustrated Bible Stories for Tiny Tots_ that I had when I was a tiny tot, there was a picture of Eve in the Garden getting deceived by the snake. In the branches of the apple tree, almost unnoticeable, a spider is sitting in its web. Very clearly, for all who have noticed the spider to see, one can discern the words “SOME SNAKE” woven into the strands of the web. I see what you did there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/91 "2018-06-05T02:07:11Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > That may be based on the fucked up compilation of Genesis, which puts the first two chapters in apparent conflict with each other. Or it might be from other folklore which did not get edited into the final version, while the editor chose to use both the inconsistent accounts of the creation that are in there. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/92 "2018-06-05T06:03:04Z")
> [@xcalibre](#): > > Did you have trouble understanding my post? I understood it, no worries. The Vulgate’s obviously closer _chronologically_ than later translations; it isn’t necessarily closer _linguistically_, which is the main point here. The transliterated form of the original Hebrew word for “Lucifer” seems to be “hê·lêl,” [as seen here](http://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/14-12.htm). ETA: **John Mace** beat me to it! ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/93 "2018-06-05T06:18:18Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Not true. All practicing Mormon believers _are required to **say** _ they believe Satan is a real guy. Only some fraction of them actually believe it. > [@Ashtura](#): > > That’s like saying “I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet”, but really not believing that. If you believe in Mormonism, you believe in the devil. You’re not a true believer otherwise. This brings us to the main crux of most of these types of discussions. As Prof. Hanegraaff put it back in 2003: > [@](#): > > Most people believe that if you want to know what Christianity is all about, you should ask a theologian. This fundamental assumption, obvious though it might seem at first sight, is a fundamental mistake. In reality, if you ask a theologian what Christianity is all about, he or she is rather likely to tell you what Christian _theology_ is all about. Implicitly or explicitly, however, his or her statement is likely to deny or minimize the very existence of a distinction between Christianity and Christian theology. In this case, if you’d ask a Mormon theologian, it appears that (assuming the claims in this thread are correct) he or she would tell you that, yes, the Devil’s a real dude. If you ask a statistically representative sample of Mormons, however, the majority of them might or might not agree with the view of the theologian. Whether or not they’re in agreement with the theologian, does their opinion “count”? Do they - the actual Mormons themselves - ever get to define “the Mormon view”? Or must they, in order to count as “true believers” (as **Ashtura** puts it) in the first place, strictly adhere to the views of theirs theologians? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/94 "2018-06-05T07:31:35Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Specifically, that book is more or less God winning a bet with the Devil. No it’s not, it’s about God using Satan, playing him like a fiddle, to correct a error of Job. In the end Job repented, so showing that there was a error in Job, and God did what was needed to get through to Job. The ‘bet’ was only the method God chose for this task. Job’s error was not letting his children face the consequences of their sin (cursing God), making animal sacrifices on their behalf without their asking. Or even Job knowing if they cursed God, as Job was apparently not invited. In the end people now came to Job when needed bringing their own animals for Job to perform the sacrifice. Job appears to be not only invited but the center figure now. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/95 "2018-06-05T20:34:21Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > This brings us to the main crux of most of these types of discussions. > > As Prof. Hanegraaff put it back in 2003: > > In this case, if you’d ask a Mormon theologian, it appears that (assuming the claims in this thread are correct) he or she would tell you that, yes, the Devil’s a real dude. > > If you ask a statistically representative sample of Mormons, however, the majority of them might or might not agree with the view of the theologian. > > Whether or not they’re in agreement with the theologian, does their opinion “count”? Do they - the actual Mormons themselves - ever get to define “the Mormon view”? Or must they, in order to count as “true believers” (as **Ashtura** puts it) in the first place, strictly adhere to the views of theirs theologians? Good question. Brigham Young wrote a lot of things, while prophet, that have since been thoroughly disavowed by the Church. Now, a typical member might say that Young was speaking “as a man, and not the prophet”, when he wrote that stuff, but it does prove that you can’t just base it off a position of authority, and that “doctrine” can be flexible. There is also disagreement about what scripture is literal and what is metaphorical, though as a rule Mormons tend to be literalist (this tends to change as things become scientifically indisputable, I doubt very many members think the earth is literally 6000 years old anymore, but they would likely say that “time is different between man and God”). My mom definitely held a literalist view back in the day, and said stuff like dinosaur bones came from matter God used to make the earth. Not official church doctrine of course, but probably was speculation used to justify literalist thinking. One interesting point is in one of the Mormon temple ceremonies, there is a film with a reenactment of the Creation/Adam and Eve story. In it, Satan is depicted as a man, not a serpent. So the serpent part from the Bible definitely seems metaphorical rather than literal. Either that, or they thought a talking snake (which could only be accomplished by puppets until relatively recently) would look ridiculous. Now, I have not been an active member for years, but I do not recall any source in official LDS literature or scripture, that speaks of Satan as metaphorical. Granted, things may have changed. I have never heard a member speak of Satan as metaphorical either. That’s not something that would be said very often, and most likely would be called out as “false doctrine.” I don’t doubt that some Mormons disbelieve in Satan, and I don’t doubt that some Mormons disbelieve in everything about the church and just go for the social aspect. But, AFAIK, Satan being a real guy is official church doctrine. This is from their official website: > **[Is Satan real? Can he harm us or cause us to have bad thoughts?](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2010/01/to-the-point/is-satan-real-can-he-harm-us-or-cause-us-to-have-bad-thoughts?lang=eng)** > > Is Satan real? Can he harm us or cause us to have bad thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/96 "2018-06-05T23:14:10Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > … > … In it, Satan is depicted as a man, not a serpent. So the serpent part from the Bible definitely seems metaphorical rather than literal. Either that, or they thought a talking snake (which could only be accomplished by puppets until relatively recently) would look ridiculous. > … Just to mention the Bible also mentions a talking donkey, so such animal communication is not unique to serpents. Also in Revelation the serpent is ID’ed as Satan. IDK how this reconciles with the book of Morman. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/97 "2018-06-06T15:49:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just to mention the Bible also mentions a talking donkey, so such animal communication is not unique to serpents. Also in Revelation the serpent is ID’ed as Satan. > > IDK how this reconciles with the book of Morman. Been a while, but I don’t recall any talking animals in the BoM. I don’t think Mormons think Satan possessed an actual snake and talked to Adam and Eve, “the serpent” is an allegory for evil for them I think. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/98 "2018-06-06T22:27:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just to mention the Bible also mentions a talking donkey, so such animal communication is not unique to serpents. Also in Revelation the serpent is ID’ed as Satan. > > IDK how this reconciles with the book of Morman. Given that the punishment for the serpent was to lose its legs and slither on the ground to bite the ankles of man, identifying it as being actually a man is kind of odd. Balaam’s ass was inspired to speak just like the burning bush - so it might be a special case. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/99 "2018-06-06T23:18:37Z")
Satan being a real guy is baked really, really hard into the cosmology of mormonism - of the four “kingdoms” of heaven, the fourth one pretty much explicitly exists to house the third of the universal population that chose his side in the debate about whether there should be an earth. Plus he was instrumental in the debate on whether there should be an earth. To believe that Satan isn’t a real guy as a mormon, you have to discard pretty much all beliefs about the metaphysical universe, up to and including Jesus’s role in it. What satan does with his time or whether he interferes with humanity at all is debatable, but his basic existence isn’t. Which is not to say that there aren’t mormons who haven’t done gone ahead and disbelieved in him, but they’d be very close to apostasy, if not straight-up over the line. Which is not to say they’re not attending, and _certainly_ isn’t to say that they’re not still on the rolls. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237/100 "2018-06-07T00:51:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > … > > Which is not to say that there aren’t mormons who haven’t done gone ahead and disbelieved in him, but they’d be very close to apostasy, if not straight-up over the line. Which is not to say they’re not attending, and _certainly_ isn’t to say that they’re not still on the rolls. IMO this part gets far too little “airplay” considering how common I think it is. People who are nominally religious and who are “on the rolls” but if the higher-ups knew that their flock was 80-90% “apostates” they’d be shocked. Or not, I don’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-in-this-world-actually-believe-that-the-devil-is-a-real-being-with-powers/815237.md?page=6)