How many people take Global Warming totally on faith?

Of course, but then you have to bring evidence that she is lying about the National Academy of Sciences, the American Meteorological Society, the American Geophysical Union and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, otherwise you are just falling into a fallacy. And consensus is not the same as unanimity.

Since the example you brought was discredited, I have to say I still have to doubt that the current change is natural.

The historical evidence shows that it was by accident that climate research concentrated now on AGW, since correlation does not mean causation :slight_smile: getting more funding can also be explained for the fact that indeed many governments want to be sure of what is going on, and I can say now that some governments were expecting that there would be nothing to worry about.

But yet you demand that we speak for others when defending semantic errors.

And that is good, I have to say that there where some things I learned too, I knew that CO2 allows short wavelength solar radiation to pass through the atmosphere and then it keeps long wavelength radiation in, what I did not realize is that scentists in the early half of the last century when testing the effects of CO2 at sea level pressure missed what CO2 does high in the atmosphere

(The reason why **tagos ** and others had no respect at all for you when you also missed that the experiment you proposed would not show much of anything.)

Once new information came it was that science began to change.

http://www.aip.org/history/exhibits/climate/co2.htm

:sigh:

Yes you did miss it, based on your latest cite then, it was a moot point.

Of course disclosure is good, and it is clear that you still can grasp the concept that I was not defending people who do not disclose things. But your example was extremely misleading, with the data available I would expect better from the deniers, instead I see more reasons why not to trust them.

It still amounts to an attempt at distracting from the fact that the deniers mentioned grabbed the data and made mistakes in the effort to discredit the findings, In the context of this thread you may have a Pyhrric victory.

In the context of people taking GW totally on faith (Not true as it is clear now), one really has to have faith when one can consider that a victory. I grant you that…

I’m curious if you’ve seen the list of scientist who do not accept evolution. Do you agree or disagree that there is a consensus about that?

There are a lot of scientists in the world, many with no more knowledge of a particular controversy than the average Joe. It is easy to get a list on both sides. What matters is if there is a consensus of those with relevant training and experience.

Fine, but that’s not an answer to my question:

Do you dispute that the Earth regularly goes through warming and cooling trends? Or that the recent observed changes in temperature are well within the range of natural fluctuation?

Fine, but that doesn’t contradict my point that there is a lot of social and economic pressure to exaggerate the amount of certainty over AGW and its potential effects.

You took it upon yourself to jump in and defend Sage rat’s false statement.

I haven’t. I just did a couple web searches and could not find it. Can you link it please?

I don’t know. I had always assumed that there was a consensus, but I would like to see this list.

Sure, as long as you don’t define “relevant training and experience” too narrowly.

Then would you mind quoting your response and telling me which post it occurred in?

Well, it seems that the people whose theories you support have a practice, in general, of disclosing far less than 100%. Don’t you agree that this is a big problem?

If Hansen had fully disclosed everything back in 1988, then we could have a legitimate test of the AGW hypothesis.

Maybe they did, and maybe they didn’t. I don’t think it affects any of the points I have made.

I no longer have the book, but I did read it in the City Of God about 25 years ago. I would have to get the book to re-read it then give you the quote,but it astounded me when I read it.

Monavis

Feh, brazil84 is indeed just nitpicking and not dealing with the evidence now, no wonder he has made that impression here:

You really do not want to take this road brazil84, there are already many items mentioned that you are not taking back (or do you still think everyone has forgotten that you showed that you can not follow the evidence by proposing a useless experiment?) and on top of that, your latest tirade can flow only by your selective quoting.

By selectively cutting “based on your latest cite then, it was a moot point.” from the quote then it is possible to attempt to fools others into thinking they should still assume you are debating in good faith.

The only points you are trying to demonstrate now are only for your own ego.

Now, going back to subject, it is still more clear to me that faith is guiding the deniers more than the proponents of AGW as the OP mentioned.

I can not take AGW totally on faith, I will always demand new evidence and constant confirmation of what was found before, even when there is a consensus there is still the need to confirm. It is a pity that so far the evidence shown has make me distrust the deniers even more.

Science has gone from refusing to acknowledge AGW to accepting it in about a generation based on evidence, Until I see religion go from changing it’s own canon (like seeing the Catholic Church turn into Unitarians) then I would begin to see it possible to claim that people are taking Global Warming totally on faith.

Is it “nitpicking” to make the following point?:

And why do you keep ignoring it?

If you prefer to attack me personally because you don’t have good answers to my arguments, maybe you should go join the pit thread.

By the way, it appears that your earlier statement:

Was also false. The graphic apparently came from a 2005 paper – not the 2004 paper referred to in your “realclimate” piece.

But that’s just more nitpicking, I suppose. Does it matter if a party to a debate makes a false statement?

I did not ignore it, but you had to omit part of my quote to tell yourself this is so. Useless to get again into.

There is a big difference between a mistake and a false statement:

What you did is nitpicking because I did notice before that they did not correct much even by that latest example.

So yes, that example you posted still remains a lousy one.

Did you or did you not answer my question?

It’s a simple question.

If a statement is false, it is false. If it’s unintentional, it’s a mistake. If it’s intentional, it’s a lie.

I gave you and Sage rat the benefit of the doubt by referring to your false statements as false statements. And not as lies.

Even if it’s “lousy” it still shows that Sage rat was wrong. So you are the one who is nitpicking.

Ok, you take the nitpick trophy, I take the “demonstrated to be not by faith AGW” one.

Hey, I’m easy. :slight_smile:

And the graphs from other sources show that the medieval heath was not as intense as what we are experiencing now.

I’ll answer my own question:

It’s outrageous that the researchers who claim that AGW is real don’t immediately (the same day as a paper is published) release every last shred of data, source code, failed models, etc. With the internet, it would be very easy to publicize and archive this information. The nondisclosure seriously undermines their credibility.

And you are still missing that I basically agree with that and you still can not grasp that I clarified that before. On top of that the evidence was indeed released later only to show that deniers can not really deal with the evidence or be trusted.

No, it’s you who are missing the point. I’m not just talking about Mann. I’m talking about all the researchers.

By the way, your post shows an interesting bias. If a “warmer” makes a “mistake,” it’s just a mistake by a single researcher. If a “denier” makes a “mistake,” it shows that “deniers can not really deal with the evidence or be trusted.”

As if you are paying attention.

I was also talking about all researchers. I already did mention before that one of the cites you pointed at did say that this is standard procedure for most researchers. Don’t agree, but I do understand there are reasons why they do not disclose the methods used.

Is that supposed to be an argument? That is more like argumentum ad ignorantiam or ad nauseam.

When you said " On top of that the evidence was indeed released later" it sounded like you were talking about 1 particular incident.

It’s more of an observation than an argument. I’m just pointing out the bias reflected by your posts.

What is clear is that you do not want to deal with what they say. Regarding this, have you found if the Washington Post was lying about all the scientific organizations that ageed with AGW?