# How many people to land a plane? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410 "2010-06-16T11:53:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/21 "2010-06-16T17:49:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [Here’s an account of a passenger-pilot being obliged to land a turboprop after the actual pilot died](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/13/florida.plane.emergency/index.html). > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > The [Chicago Tribune’s article](http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/flight-attendant-co-pilot-ohare-attendant-helps-lands-plane.html) has more info - no other pilot on board, her license was out of date but at least she did have some experience. I wonder: do these people get to put the time in the cockpit in their logbooks? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/22 "2010-06-16T18:04:00Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’m willing to bet that he let her handle the radios, checklists, clearances and stuff. She probably didn’t actually touch the controls. This. It’s nice to have some run the radio stack which involves changing frequencies for the radio, transponder and maybe the direction heading bug (or the airline equivalent). As the next frequencies are given the co-pilot will dial them into the 2nd radio so it can be flipped by the pilot as needed. Going through the pre-landing checklist allows the PIC to fly the airplane. It also puts pilot redundancy back in the cockpit. You’d be surprised how useful a 2nd pilot is in a small plane and that is magnified as the complexity goes up. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/23 "2010-06-16T18:10:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Would you mind seeing if you can find the FAR that specifies required aircrew? I think it’s Part 61, but it might be Part 23 or 25. IIRC, you fly heavies and undoubtedly have more knowledge of this than I. As a private pilot, I just skim over those parts. 61.51(f) covers logging second-in-command flight time. It refers to the aircraft’s type certification requiring more than one pilot. 61.31(a) lists aircraft for which a type rating is required: 1. Large aircraft (which is defined as maximum certificated takeoff weight of over 12,500 pounds 2. Turbojet powered airplanes 3. Other aircraft specified by the FAA There are some Cessna Citations that are approved for single-pilot operations, but being jet powered would require a type rating. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/24 "2010-06-16T18:25:21Z")
Thanks, **Mach Tuck**. I knew at least some Citations could be flown by single pilots. (IIRC, Lears require two.) I must have just assumed that weight was a determinant for single/second pilot operations, but it looks from your… ‘Citations’… that it’s a function of how the aircraft were certified. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/25 "2010-06-16T18:28:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I wonder: do these people get to put the time in the cockpit in their logbooks? She was acting as Second In Command, so I think so. She didn’t need a current medical or flight review since she wasn’t PIC. Not sure if she could log the time as SIC without being type-rated, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/26 "2010-06-16T18:30:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > To expand on what **ElvisL1ves** said, a Commercial certificate is not an Air Transport Pilot certificate. To expand on _that_, you only need a Commercial license and a Second Class medical to be an airline first officer. Only to act as an airline captain do you need an ATP and a First Class. A flight attendant needs a Third Class aviation medical, btw - s/he’s a required crew member. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/27 "2010-06-16T18:53:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > She was acting as Second In Command, so I think so. She didn’t need a current medical or flight review since she wasn’t PIC. Not sure if she could log the time as SIC without being type-rated, though. Nope. Unless she’s type rated in the aircraft, she couldn’t log the time as second-in-command. In that situation she was simply assisting the pilot. ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/28 "2010-06-16T18:56:49Z")
Most modern commercial jets can land on auto pilot. If you can get on the horn to talk to someone they can talk you through programming it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/29 "2010-06-16T21:20:45Z")
> [@ChrisBooth12](#): > > Most modern commercial jets can land on auto pilot. If you can get on the horn to talk to someone they can talk you through programming it. It takes a cat III landing system at the airport along with a matching cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/30 "2010-06-16T21:53:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It takes a cat III landing system at the airport along with a matching cockpit. If the pilot and co-pilot are incapacitated, and someone with no flying experience is at the controls, I’d say that warrants diverting to a cat III airport. Actually, in a case like that, I’ve always wondered if they could re-direct the plane to the dry lake at Edwards Air Force Base. There’s oodles of room in every direction, as long as you come down wheels-first. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/31 "2010-06-16T22:12:31Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > In [this news tidbit,](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37717114/ns/travel-news/) a flight attendant who also happened to be a licensed commercial pilot helped the pilot land a plane after the copilot fell ill. > > OK, so what if the flight attendant hadn’t been a licensed pilot? I thought a major point of having a pilot and copilot is that if one of them gets sick or dies during the flight, the other one is capable of landing the plane independently. > > Can a pilot and flight engineer safely land a big commercial jet (e.g. 747) by themselves? Can a single pilot do it solo (without even a flight engineer)? Flight engineers are pretty much obsolete. The 747-400 was released in 1988, and is piloted by a crew of two. Any large jet can be landed by a single pilot. No country would certify a jet for passenger operation that could not be landed if one of the pilots were incapacitated. However, the workload on the pilot would be higher than it would be without the copilot’s assistance. Despite all the computerization and automation, large jets are still very complex machines, and navigating the air traffic control system is itself complex. Overworked pilots are more likely to make mistakes. Chances are, the plane would still have landed safely if the FA were not available, but the risk of an accident would have been increased nonetheless. Conscripting the FA to assist the pilot helped minimize that risk. That doesn’t mean that the pilot was incapable of landing the plane himself - just that commercial aviation safety is all about minimizing risks. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/32 "2010-06-16T22:53:07Z")
That said - if I was the pilot, I would have a hard time deciding if I trusted the flight attendant enough to actually depend on her to reduce my workload, or if my workload would actually be increased by having to tell her what to do and ensuring she doesn’t make a mistake. This story could easily have ended up with a crash, and instead of a cheerful MSNBC article, a terse NTSB report in six months saying something like: > [@NTSB](#): > > On June 14, 2010, at approximately 1115 Pacific daylight savings time (1815 UTC) United Airlines flight 889, B777-222, made an ILS approach to and landed on runway 22L at New York Laguardia Airport (LGA), New York, New York, colliding with an Airbus A380 that had been cleared to cross runway 22L. The accident aircraft had received an ATC clearance to land on runway 22R. > > The pilot stated that the copilot had become incapacitated due to illness with two hours remaining the flight, and he asked a flight attendant to assist with the approach and landing procedure. The flight attendant was a licensed pilot with 300 hours in single-engine planes, but did not hold an Air Transport Pilot Certificate, nor a B777 type rating. > > During the approach to landing, the flight attendant incorrectly provided the pilot with the ILS frequency for runway 22L instead of 22R. The pilot stated that, due to the flight attendant’s exemplary performance of her assigned tasks during the preceding 1:30 hours of the flight, and the high number of tasks to be performed during the approach procedure, he did not feel it was necessary to check the frequency she provided. > > The pilot additionally stated that this was only his second approach to this airport, and he was not familiar enough with the layout to recognize the incorrect runway selection visually. > > Probable cause: the pilot performed an ILS approach to the incorrect runway after an uncertified crew member provided him with the incorrect ILS frequency. Contributing factors were the prior in-flight incapacitation of the copilot and the pilot’s poor decision-making in relying on the uncertified crew member to perform cockpit duties. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/33 "2010-06-16T23:44:34Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > That said - if I was the pilot, I would have a hard time deciding if I trusted the flight attendant enough to actually depend on her to reduce my workload, or if my workload would actually be increased by having to tell her what to do and ensuring she doesn’t make a mistake. The FAA makes a big deal about teaching crew resource management (CRM) at all levels of pilot training. One of its tenets is that a pilot should be aware of, and use, available resources both inside and outside the cockpit. It should be noted that a “crew” can be a single person. In the case under discussion, the guy flying the plane became a crew of one when his partner was taken ill. Commonly listed examples of resources include documents in the cockpit, air traffic controllers, mechanics or other pilots who can be reached by radio, and… non-pilot passengers. Had the pilot NOT availed himself of help from someone like the flight attendant, and something bad happened, the NTSB could very well have faulted him for not following good CRM procedures. Now that doesn’t mean he has her read the approach plate without his double checking it. It does mean that she could do various non-critical tasks under his direction, thereby reducing his workload, which seems to be exactly what he did. I’ve been in this situation myself, though far less dramatically. Flying an under-equipped aircraft in bad weather, I’ve had passengers locate and hold maps for me, change radio frequencies, etc. I’m still in charge, just using available resources. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/34 "2010-06-17T00:15:24Z")
The plane itself was fine - there was no emergency with regards to the equipment, which means when the plane arrived at its destination it had enough extra fuel (enough to divert to one alternate airport + some amount of time) to take the time to report the crew emergency to ATC, get clearance to enter a holding pattern and take the time to familiarize the flight attendant with exactly which tasks she would be charged with and how to do them before requesting clearance to land. Depending on the attendant’s level of knowledge, this could only take a few minutes (and might not need the plane to hold). Also, the airport would have been on alert that a plane is making an emergency landing, and so once on approach, it would possibly stop all ground movements and request air traffic to yield right-of-way per ICAO standards to the incident aircraft, thereby reducing the risk of collisions or resolution advisories on approach and landing. The goal is to get the plane in distress down safely, rather than making sure other planes take off exactly on time. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/35 "2010-06-17T00:32:36Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > That said - if I was the pilot, I would have a hard time deciding if I trusted the flight attendant enough to actually depend on her to reduce my workload, or if my workload would actually be increased by having to tell her what to do and ensuring she doesn’t make a mistake. > > This story could easily have ended up with a crash, and instead of a cheerful MSNBC article, a terse NTSB report in six months saying something like: Not really. I’ve flown about 1500 hours single pilot multi-engine IFR. Nearly all of it was done with a non-pilot crew member in the other front seat. The crew member usually read the checklists in addition to their usual non-flying duties. It wasn’t always perfect but it was always a lot easier and safer than trying to read the checklist myself (I personally believe that memory is safer for _single pilot flying_ than trying to run a checklist, but I fear most of the industry doesn’t agree.) ILS frequencies shouldn’t be blindly accepted by any pilot, regardless of who is giving them the information. In our company each pilot in a two-pilot crew is required to independently retrieve and set all radio and navaid frequencies. If the captain in this event had accepted a bad frequency then it is entirely on him and really has nothing to do with the person next to him, an FO is quite capable of screwing up frequencies too. I was the FO on a flight when the captain became incapacitated, in the end he was able to fulfill his duties as the “pilot monitoring” but if he had not been able to, I would’ve preferred having anyone in the front seat to help out. Our aircraft can be quite easily flown by one person, but if there’s help available, you use it. ---
**Author:** ![Av8trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@Av8trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Av8trix)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/36 "2010-06-17T00:42:40Z")
Dealing with an incapacitated crewmember is part of our initial simulator training at my airline. Despite having entered training as a moderately experienced pilot, I felt busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest when tasked with handling a somewhat unfamiliar aircraft solo into some of the busiest airspace in the world. Everything got done, all checklists accomplished, and made a safe, standard landing, but the flurry of activity was less than… ideal. The level of automation required for the mythical “autoland” does not exist for my aircraft. If I had had someone just to handle radio transmissions/tuning frequencies, that would have reduced the workload significantly. Of course, since simulator instructor pilots are the sadistic spawn of the devil, carrying out His work, no “virtual” flight attendant was available to me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/37 "2010-06-17T01:14:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > How does a licensed commercial pilot end up being a flight attendant? 😕 It’s not that unheard of - one of the local instructors at the flight school nearest me is a flight attendant for United Airlines. I never asked him which came first. But there’s another example of a flight attendant with a commercial license. In the Helios Airways Flight 522 accident in 2005 after the two pilots were incapacitated a flight attendant who also happened to have a pilot’s license (though was not licensed to fly such a large aircraft) attempted to fly the airplane, but is presumed to have succumbed to the same thing that incapacitated everyone else on board. So it’s not just an American phenomena, either. In the US getting a commercial rating isn’t that big a deal, and I’ve bumped into any number of pilots who have them who do something other than fly as their primary means of making money. For a while I pursued one for the challenge, not because I had any real desire to work as a pilot (but did not finish that project - I decided I wanted to fly tailwheels and vintage airplanes more). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/38 "2010-06-17T01:35:08Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If the pilot and co-pilot are incapacitated, and someone with no flying experience is at the controls, I’d say that warrants diverting to a cat III airport. You are assuming that 1. The aircraft in question had an operable Cat III system 2. It would be practical to divert to a similarly equipped airport (this will not always be the case due to factors like weather and fuel) 3. An untrained person would have the ability to use said Cat III system. It’s not like you can call ATC and say “help me program this Cat III landing” - ATC does not fly airplanes, they aren’t trained in airplane systems (well, most of them aren’t - there are a few air traffic controllers that are also pilots, but they’re rare and there’s no guarantee you’ll have one available in such a situation, or that he’d be be at all familiar with the particular aircraft you’re flying), and the best they could do is ask around to see if any pilots that ARE trained/competent in that particular aircraft and system just happen to be listening in and could maybe help you. Maybe. Those magic autoland systems require more than a single button-push to get them to work, you know. > [@](#): > > Actually, in a case like that, I’ve always wondered if they could re-direct the plane to the dry lake at Edwards Air Force Base. There’s oodles of room in every direction, as long as you come down wheels-first. Again, you’re assuming they have enough fuel to get there…(and that’s just for starters) Even if they did - you can still bollix a landing on flat, dry ground in a spectacular manner. Sure, it’s an idea and I could envision a circumstance where that’s your best chance at survival but hey, don’t get the idea survival would be guaranteed. Hell, plenty of _professional_ pilots have died on those salt flats due to unforeseen problems! > [@Absolute](#): > > That said - if I was the pilot, I would have a hard time deciding if I trusted the flight attendant enough to actually depend on her to reduce my workload, or if my workload would actually be increased by having to tell her what to do and ensuring she doesn’t make a mistake. Or maybe they two of them had worked on the same flight crews for years and thus the pilot knew the FA well enough to have some trust in her. Ultimately, it’s up to the pilot in command how much a passenger-assistant would be given to help out. Clearly, someone with pilot training will be more helpful than someone without pilot training. It’s up to the PIC at the point in time Something Happens to make that call, based on whatever information/resources he or she has. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/39 "2010-06-17T02:22:52Z")
A small point about the airport side of an autoland system, physically any ILS will do, legally the ILS needs to be certified to CAT III. If you were really in trouble, and had decided it was the safest option, you could do an autoland in a suitably equipped aeroplane at an airport with a standard ILS. There was a jet that did this into Perth some time ago, the strip was covered in fog and the aircraft didn’t have fuel to go anywhere else. The options were to ditch with hundreds of passengers on board, or do an autoland on a non-certified ILS, they did the autoland. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410/40 "2010-06-17T02:29:31Z")
Here’s a link to the [autoland incident at Perth (PDF).](http://www.crikey.com.au/Media/docs/aair200605473-001-5d53a18c-7190-4630-9331-148af17ac26b.pdf) > [@](#): > > On 16 September 2006 at 0038 Western Standard Time, an Airbus Industrie A330 landed on runway 21 at Perth Airport in weather conditions that were below the applicable landing minima. The aircraft, registered VH-QPJ, was being operated in accordance with the instrument flight rules (IFR) on a scheduled passenger flight from Singapore to Perth, WA. > Before departure from Singapore, the aerodrome forecast (TAF) for Perth Airport predicted a 30% probability of fog after 0200. The aircraft was due at Perth at 0020 so in accordance with the operator’s fuel policy; fuel was not specifically carried for a diversion from the destination to an alternate aerodrome. While the aircraft was in cruise, the TAF was revised to forecast fog from 2400, but the trend type forecasts (TTF) which superseded the TAF trended fog from 0030. > > At about 2350, when the flight crew commenced descent, the aircraft passed the point where it had the fuel to divert to Learmonth, WA. About 10 minutes later, the TTF was amended to forecast fog to occur before the aircraft’s arrival time. The fog occurred at about 0015. The crew attempted two Instrument Landing System (ILS) approaches before they used autoland to land on runway 21 in weather conditions that were below the prescribed landing minima for the ILS > > The ILS at Perth (and other Australian airports) was approved to the Category I standard that did not allow landings where the visibility was less than 800 m. The Perth runway 21 ILS glide path critical area was not fully protected from multipath effects during low visibility operations. > Perth and Learmonth were the only aerodromes in Western Australia that could be classified as suitable for the A330, and Learmonth was 599 NM (1,110 km) from Perth. > As a result of this occurrence, the operator implemented an interim flight planning fuel policy specifically for Perth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-people-to-land-a-plane/543410.md?page=3)