There are quite a few atheist anglican priests out there. One can assume they didn’t make this known either on the application form nor during normal services.
If it is possible for priests to lie about being an atheist and hide the fact then someone in public office will have few qualms.
Somewhere in the region of 10% of Americans have no belief in God. Now ask yourself how many of the thousands of congressmen and senators over the years have been self identified as atheists or agnostics. Statistically there should be hundreds, I suspect they are very thin on the ground.
It’s actually fascinating to me to hear how atheists are perceived in countries like the US.
My atheism is just one small part of my philosophy; it informs my understanding of the universe as much as my lack of belief of Santa Claus.
But to some theists, it means I must be anti everything they are for.
But the alternative is to make such serious decisions based on an interpretation of scripture. Just one example is that many in the religious right believe that judgement day is coming and implicitly believe we don’t really need to prepare for the future, or care about things like global warming.
Of course it’s difficult for me to explain to someone who does believe in scripture why this is dangerous. The best I can do is point out that there is a layer of interpretation / understanding in there. Once people thought the bible condoned slavery (because, well, it does) but now we “know” better.
What else are Christians interpreting incorrectly, and using as the basis of big decisions?
It’s actually fascinating to me to hear how atheists are perceived in countries like the US.
My atheism is just one small part of my philosophy; it informs my understanding of the universe as much as my lack of belief of Santa Claus.
But to some theists, it means I must be anti everything they are for.
But the alternative is to make such serious decisions based on an interpretation of scripture. Just one example is that many in the religious right believe that judgement day is coming and implicitly believe we don’t really need to prepare for the future, or care about things like global warming.
Of course it’s difficult for me to explain to someone who does believe in scripture why this is dangerous. The best I can do is point out that there is a layer of interpretation / understanding in there. Once people thought the bible condoned slavery (because, well, it does) but now we “know” better.
When did I ever say I believed in scripture?? I have a very abstract concept of a creator, I have no idea if he is even aware of us or not. On a conscious level I will not deny the existence of God even though I am very skeptical of his existence.
I can think of a lot of things in this world I would be perfectly happy eliminating, the only thing that would stop me if I had the authority was my concept of a God that I am not even sure about.
You said you were worried about atheists making big and long-term decisions without god. And now you’re saying belief in god’s authority stops you making such big decisions.
But most decisions aren’t like that; in most cases there is no obvious passive option and/or doing nothing has huge consequences. Why are you not worried about that possibility or those outcomes?
Is it purely a blame thing – that if you sit on your hands, and then people die, well, that’s on God?
I am also of OP’s age.
was raised in Midwest, and the John Birch Society was regarded as a “moderate” group.
Being an “Atheist” was regarded as being the worst a person could possibly be - after all, when you get right down to it, ANY religion beats NO religion.
If the Believers have lingering distrust of us, I have a bit stronger distrust of those who use religion as a club to beat all who disagree.
If wars get blamed on gods, do periods of peace (are there any?) get attributed to atheists?
I’m the opposite of you, I believe in scripture (for certain definitions of “believe”) but I don’t base my decisions on whether God exists or what opinion He’ll have of them.
I know many atheists who are just the same people who twenty years ago would have called themselves Catholic: they’re baptised, had first communion and have a high probability of having gotten married in front of a priest; their children are baptised and get first communion; they set foot in a church for big local feasts or family happenings but only then; attend or walk in every religious parade; can’t follow Mass without a prompter, and badly with one. I know others who are kind of envious of the ability to trust blindly in someone, be it God or your own sibling. And I know others who aren’t so much atheists as antitheists. Knowing what label someone adscribes to his belief system gives you general outlines, but a one word label is more along the lines of knowing what continent they live in than what neighborhood.
When I went to work in the intelligence community over thirty years ago, gay people were not allowed to hold security clearances. We had all been informed of this during the hiring process. But an orientation briefing noted that there was one exception - a computer scientist considered so valuable that the director had intervened personally to keep him from getting fired. The briefer - a couple decades older than us incoming employees - earnestly informed us that our Agency had “one homosexual employee”. There were a lot of muffled chuckles.
I’m not asking you to accept anything Shodan, I was just relating conversations I’ve had, to which the rules of Great Debates didn’t apply.
Yeah, it can be. Because atheism doesn’t just remove fear of hell. It removes the reward of heaven. It removes the being from on high who can establish what morality actually is.
I remember wondering why an atheist would bother being moral, and approaching how morality could possibly work from an secular point of view. Before I did that, I didn’t know why atheists wouldn’t just change their morality to do what they want. I mean, everybody already does that, to a certain extent. We all make excuses for our own failures to uphold our own morals.
As a Christian, it was my belief in God that kept me from straying too far. But I had no idea how that would work without a God. I had to learn a lot of things. Granted, I didn’t learn them all that deeply, but I did start to see how morality could be a thing of its own, completely separate from religion.
I did see how you could say that, say, murder is wrong. I could see how lying or stealing is wrong. It’s a quid pro quo thing, really. I don’t want to be deceived. I don’t want to be stolen from. I don’t want to be murdered. So it makes sense to create a morality where those things are forbidden. Extending that, it just seems that society itself depends on having morality, rules of behavior, because, otherwise, we couldn’t get the advantages of society.
So, when a Christian doesn’t understand how an atheist can be ethical, I assume it’s just lack of knowledge, not because they think fear of hell can be the only thing keeping me from sinning.
To be honest, I’m a Christian who is not entirely sure Hell exists. At least, not the eternal version. I don’t see any definitive Biblical support for it.
For the benefit of anyone still thinking this way, consider this:
Here in China there are 1.3 billion people and the vast majority are not religious. And yet it’s not a Hobbesian nightmare of people trying to get away with murder because human psychology is not like that. Emotions like guilt and empathy are natural to us, as much as lust or envy say, and there is no inherent reason why the latter should “win” or be the true scotsman emotions (and negative emotions/thinking must win utterly for us to go do a thing like rape)
And society puts a lot of effort into promoting behaviour that is beneficial to society and punishing or ostracizing bad behaviour. This might seem manipulative, but we are a social species; we’re accutely tuned to what the group wants. And you can’t have a society that doesn’t at least implicitly encourage and discourage particular actions.
And then finally, at a conscious level, we can reason our way out of doing something evil when the action has great consequences.
I think this is a much more positive view of Homo sapiens than just we are craven beasts waiting for an opportunity to rape or kill, so god has to hover over us with the naughty stick.
I think you may be right in some cases. But I know believers who are explicit about the lack of eventual consequences being key to their distrust of atheists. Perhaps some of these people started out as you describe, became committed to their stance on the issue, and sought out reasons for it.
I also think a lot of people hear the “No God –> No Consequences –> No Morals” argument and adopt it intact. Encountering contrary evidence (e.g., an avowed atheist who’s lived their entire life without behaving like a sociopath) won’t change the mind of anyone who wasn’t reasoned into their position.
