# How many Settlements does Israel Need? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599 "2017-07-06T13:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/1 "2017-07-06T13:31:26Z")
Play nice. I see Israel is building new settlements again. I understand this has a lot of political aspects to it. Nonetheless, I would like to understand the numbers that underpin it. Do Israeli Jews have a shortage of affordable housing? Are there figures for this? Are the non-occupied parts of the region unavailable for housing? Why? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/2 "2017-07-06T13:40:52Z")
There is definitely a housing shortage in Israel. As for where they’re building, a good part of it is likely political, but a part of it is also the fact that much of the population increase is children who grew up on West Bank settlements in the first place. The existing settlements have not been allowed new construction in quite a while, which is part of the reason for the housing shortage. This new generation would like to stay reasonably close to the homes they grew up in. I’m not saying they’re right in doing that, I’m just saying this is part of the reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/3 "2017-07-06T14:16:20Z")
Are housing costs up because of this shortage? In other news, I have the sniffles and am going to take some smuggled Nyquil and turn in very early. I will check back tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/4 "2017-07-06T14:20:05Z")
Enough to push all non-Jews out of the occupied territories. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/5 "2017-07-06T14:43:22Z")
**cmkeller** has it right. I’d also add that as Orthodox Jews, most settlers have large families and thus a large net population growth rate, even with emigration out of teh territories. Hence, their demand for settlement expansion. Housing prices in Israel are indeed high, and growing higher, but there’s little to no emigration from Israel proper to the Territories. The settlement size increases are almost completely from their own population growth, supplemented by a certain amount of foreign immigrants, mainly Americans. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/6 "2017-07-06T15:00:08Z")
It may seem that my comment is political opinion, but I believe it is factual. I believe the answer to that question is “enough settlements to make a Palestinian state inviable”. An interesting aside: I was one of the first non-Palestinians to live on the newly recaptured West Bank. This was back in 1968. In fact at the time that I rented the house of a former Jordanian army officer in a small village east of Jerusalem, it was prohibited for Israelis to live on the West Bank. Many adventures during that time. Times have changed. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/7 "2017-07-06T19:42:07Z")
True. There are multiple aspects. The more fundamentalist Israelis believe the whole land is theirs since 3000 years ago (with a 2000 year interlude), and Arab Palestinians and Palestine itself are an inconvenience to be ignored and pushed out of the way. There’s even a racist trope that says “the Palestinians haven’t been here more than a few generations, they’re just as new to the region as the recent Jewish settlers.” The fun part of proportional representation is that these fundamentalists create single-issue parties who care only about their issues, which revolve around complete adherence to he law (the buses don’t even run on Sabbath) and implementing a fundamentalist agenda, including wrt the view of land ownership. The Israeli government has a not-so-subtle policy of slowly choking out Palestinian residents and encouraging Israeli settlements around East Jerusalem especially to enforce a de-facto ownership when it comes to settling the issue of Jerusalem. This includes things like denying almost any building permit request by a Palestinian - which gives them the added bonus of legally claiming the right to demolish any building constructed or altered without the required but impossible permit. they also have difficult and onerous sales and inheritance laws, so the people who used to own the property and fled during the last war(s) cannot return, cannot sell or will the property to whomever happens to be there, etc. So it becomes unclaimed property, despite the owner’s relatives having lived there for decades - at which point, some Israelis (of the right persuasion) may petition to buy it. As opposed to settlements in the countryside, where lands are often just taken, or “bought” on questionable pretexts. Plus, to implement these policies, (IIRC) the government subsidizes home ownership in occupied Palestine to encourage people to move there. So homes are cheaper there. The other problem is that they would have to spend a massive amount to build new replacement housing in Israel proper. Note that settling your own people in an occupied territory is specifically illegal under international law - as is annexing, which they’ve done with the area of East Jerusalem You can occupy a territory as a result of war and for defense, but you can’t move people in and “take it over” without a properly negotiated agreement with the current owners. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/8 "2017-07-06T19:51:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > **cmkeller** has it right. I’d also add that as Orthodox Jews, most settlers have large families and thus a large net population growth rate, even with emigration out of teh territories. Hence, their demand for settlement expansion. Housing prices in Israel are indeed high, and growing higher, but there’s little to no emigration from Israel proper to the Territories. The settlement size increases are almost completely from their own population growth, supplemented by a certain amount of foreign immigrants, mainly Americans. Can Palestinians move to the Settlements too? If so, that might be nice for everyone, and increase the chance for dialog. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/9 "2017-07-07T12:22:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Play nice. > > I see Israel is building new settlements again. I understand this has a lot of political aspects to it. Nonetheless, I would like to understand the numbers that underpin it. > > Do Israeli Jews have a shortage of affordable housing? Are there figures for this? Are the non-occupied parts of the region unavailable for housing? Why? Part of the reason is the there was never a nation called Palestine. So the land around there is not any nation. The Paletnsitnas, if they are wise would vote out Hamas and end terrorism. They badly need their own Gandhi or Martin Luther King. But such a person is not likely to rise to power in their culture. When all we see is violence against, it’s hard to be sympathetic toward their cause. Isreal shows tremendous restraint. Could you imagine what would happen to a nation if fired 1,000 missiles against the USA? I think it is possible for a new state, but the Palenstians need to give up the concept of getting control of Jerusalem and work with the map the way it is in exchange for resources, water and such. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/10 "2017-07-07T13:28:18Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Isreal shows tremendous restraint. Could you imagine what would happen to a nation if fired 1,000 missiles against the USA? Joan Rivers once remarked, “Can you imagine Jersey shooting rockets at us? We’d wipe 'em out!” ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/11 "2017-07-07T13:46:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > **cmkeller** has it right. I’d also add that as Orthodox Jews, most settlers have large families and thus a large net population growth rate, even with emigration out of teh territories. Hence, their demand for settlement expansion. Housing prices in Israel are indeed high, and growing higher, but there’s little to no emigration from Israel proper to the Territories. The settlement size increases are almost completely from their own population growth, supplemented by a certain amount of foreign immigrants, mainly Americans. To underscore this quantitatively: Arab women in the WB have a fertility rate of around 3, and Jewish women in the WB have a TFR of over 5 children apiece (equivalent to Afghan women). ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/12 "2017-07-07T13:52:28Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The Paletnsitnas, if they are wise would vote out Hamas and end terrorism. They badly need their own Gandhi or Martin Luther King. Gandhi kicked the British out of India. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/13 "2017-07-07T14:20:26Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Part of the reason is the there was never a nation called Palestine. I asked you to play nice. I also asked you about settlements. You are not playing nice and you are not answering the question about settlements. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/14 "2017-07-07T15:08:22Z")
He did however indirectly answer the question for at least some POVs. In that POV, the number of settlements necessary is whatever number it takes to consume the entire [del]occupied[/del] recently liberated territories. Which, once they all grow together, amounts to an answer of “1”. FTR: that is not my own POV. I’m merely explaining one of the POVs I observe. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/15 "2017-07-07T19:02:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The settlement size increases are almost completely from their own population growth, supplemented by a certain amount of foreign immigrants, mainly Americans. I’ll bet the American immigrants bring in significantly more dickish attitude than the Sabras. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/16 "2017-07-08T01:28:40Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > . . . you are not answering the question about settlements. Can there actually be a factual answer? Israel doesn’t “need” any settlements at all. It can be argued that some strategically-placed settlements increase the security of the “core” of Israel: having a forward defense in the West Bank makes Jerusalem and Tel Aviv a little safer. (But…it can also be argued that they don’t…) Meanwhile, there can be a limit, even to a good thing (and whether even the most strategic settlements are a “good thing” is hotly debated.) The settlement program is far from “pushing all non-Jews out of the occupied territories,” and will never expand to even a fraction of that. Still, some settlement expansions are not strategically sited, but are more for population than for defense. These can require further settlements around them for their defense, and so the concept can, if not pursued wisely, be detrimental to defense. But, again, all of this is fiercely debated, and so a truly factual answer may be beyond anyone’s ability to provide. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/17 "2017-07-08T01:49:09Z")
Doesn’t water resources limit how many settlements can be supported? They have done remarkable work with brackish water for farming. Drinking water is still a major concern. I’m not familiar with Israel’s settlements. Is the Negev in the disputed part of the West Bank? > **[Turning sand into land. Desert farms in Israel grow lush crops from sand and...](https://www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/amphtml/1987/0519/dsand.html)** > > IMAGINE a vast expanse of moonscape rock and sand that has been a desolate hothouse since pre-history. Here at the lowest point on Earth, 1,200 fee > [@](#): > > With an admiring smile, he points across the desert’s sandy monochrome at the striking landscape of Neot Hakikar’s rich harvest. Mirage-like, acres of colorful vegetables ripen in the hot sun. But more remarkable is that the crops are genetically engineered and irrigated with super-salty, `brackish'' water from large aquifers beneath the Negev. Eisenmann calls it `nudging divinity with modern science.‘’ > > From `uninhabitable,’ to half-million dwellers > Israel’s dramatic greening of the Negev with brackish water is indeed a technological and biological breakthrough. It portends a revolution in the management of land and water resources in desert environments. And where once the Negev was pronounced ``uninhabitable,‘’ today it is home to 445,000 Jews and 55,000 Bedouins, and more than 250 thriving agricultural settlements. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/18 "2017-07-08T02:09:49Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Could you imagine what would happen to a nation if fired 1,000 missiles against the USA? We just happen to have been lucky enough to have had our turn at disproportionate war before the advent of instant worldwide news and communication. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/19 "2017-07-08T02:37:38Z")
Look, I am sorry I asked. There was a time Dopers could answer a factual question about Jewish housing in Israel and in occupied Palestine. Somehow we have allowed people who object to the question to start talking about rockets. As far as I am concerned, we might as well close the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599/20 "2017-07-08T02:47:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Doesn’t water resources limit how many settlements can be supported? > > They have done remarkable work with brackish water for farming. Drinking water is still a major concern. > > I’m not familiar with Israel’s settlements. Is the Negev in the disputed part of the West Bank? 1. Israel today produces more water from desalination than it can use and actually exports water to Jordan. 2. Negev is not in the “West Bank”. But to a lot of Arabs, Negev and the rest of Israel is part of “disputed” territory. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-settlements-does-israel-need/790599.md?page=2)