# How many times do I have to say, "I don't know!"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542 "2003-07-10T19:38:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scout1222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@scout1222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scout1222)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/21 "2003-07-11T01:00:09Z")
You know, if they really would _give_ out a lobotomy with each mortgage, it might make the prospect of paying off a debt of such size a little more palatable. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/22 "2003-07-11T01:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\*Actually it’s not. The rate at which the principal portion of a loan gets paid off is not remotely linear - it is parabolic. > > Essentially the way it works is that you make constant payments over the years. In the first payment, the interest charges are very high, so that almost no principal gets paid off. But that little bit of principal reduction reduces the next month’s interest cost just a bit, so that the next payment consists of a (very) slightly higher percentage of principal, and lower percentage of interest. The next month’s interest payment is reduced even more, and so on. Eventually, the scales tip entirely, and you end up paying mostly and almost entirely principal. \*\* Being among other things, a morgtage broker, I kinda know how it works. This is a “simple calculation.” Upon further thought and reflection about this thread, I feel like retracting my ealrier criticism of Gazelle. Joe Mortgage Broker, whom Gazelle was speaking to, should have done a much better qualifying job. Rather than ask the same question over and over, and piss Gazelle off what he should have done is asked: What’s the current market value of your house? How long have you owned it? What kind of down payment did you make? What’s your interest rate? How long was your mortgage? By asking these questions he could have gotten a clue. So, while on first glance it appears that Gazelle is at fault, in actuality I think the problem lies with the broker. ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/23 "2003-07-11T03:21:08Z")
I gotta got with pretty much everyone else here, **Gazelle**. If you don’t know the basics of the current value of your property, the balance on your loan, your current interest rate, when you financed your current loan, and the type of your current loan (30 year fixed, whatever), I have no clue why you’d bother talking to anyone. They can’t tell you if there’s any point in refinancing unless you know this basic stuff, and you’re just wasting your time and theirs without it. ---
**Author:** ![Shana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Shana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shana)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/24 "2003-07-11T06:58:16Z")
Well ok…maybe she didn’t know. Fine. I think the thing Gazelle was reacting to was the pissy, unprofessional attitude of the phone rep. I mean, if her lack of information was really wasting the poor man’s time then he should have just said, “That’s fine. Call back when you have the information.” What was the point in him goading her on and on? Besides, some people like to be accurate. Maybe she just bridled at the thought of guesstimating something so important. I’m sure now she knows that next time she calls to refinance (I’m quite sure she won’t be calling the same company again) she will have her mortgage bill in front of her to give them all the info they need…but geesh, there is no need for a phone rep to be snide. You know, I’m really not cut out for the pit am I? Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/25 "2003-07-11T10:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shana \* > \*\*Well ok…maybe she didn’t know. Fine. > > I think the thing Gazelle was reacting to was the pissy, unprofessional attitude of the phone rep. I mean, if her lack of information was really wasting the poor man’s time then he should have just said, “That’s fine. Call back when you have the information.” What was the point in him goading her on and on? \*\* Are we reading different OPs? – 'cause it seems pretty much that’s what the telephone-rep did say? _Specifically_, how do you infer a “pissy unprofessional attitude” from the conversation as given? Somewhere out there on the intermaweb, telephone-bod is ranting about this dumb-assed customer who phoned for a mortgage but didn’t even have the first fucking clue how much they wanted, _like that was some sort of esoteric and/or irrelevant information_. Whatever, give me some of what **Gazelle** ’s on. ---
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/26 "2003-07-11T11:49:50Z")
That’s not a complete transcript of the call. When Dingleberry Boy answered the phone, I said, “I’m calling for some information about refinancing.” He asked how old our townhouse was, whether we had a second mortgage… So he knew our mortgage is 5 years old. So I know that the “Wow, maybe it’s paid off!” comment was meant to mess with me. I was calling from work. I don’t have my mortgage paperwork with me. When I admitted I didn’t have all the information, the jackass should have said, “Well, here’s a list of the information we need. Perhaps you could gather it and give us a call back.” Wow, I’m surprised so many people think I’m a dumbass for not having this infomation at my fingertips. I’ve purchased one house in my life. I don’t pore over my financial paperwork. I balance my checkbook, make sure bills are paid and in the case of loans that I actually have a chance of paying off… I know the outstanding balances. For example, we owe $1700 for a cruise we’ve booked for next February. I just paid off our 2002 Federal taxes - $512.78. All I wanted was some preliminary information; perhaps an explanation of the process. I cannot be the first customer to call with incomplete information. And I did indeed balk at guessing. **BubbaDog** , this is the first time (I’m pretty sure) someone’s called me stupid on the SDMB. I’m taking it a lot better than I thought I would… Your posts made me laugh. Partially because I’m not a guy. **Unwashed** , asking the same question over and over is unprofessional. When I said I’d have to call back, he should have taken that as my answer and walked the fuck away. ---
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/27 "2003-07-11T12:07:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gazelle \* > **I balance my checkbook, make sure bills are paid and in the case of loans that I actually have a chance of paying off… I know the outstanding balances. For example, we owe $1700 for a cruise we’ve booked for next February. I just paid off our 2002 Federal taxes - $512.78.** Okay, those aren’t loans. But you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Frumious\_Bandersnatch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Frumious\_Bandersnatch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frumious_Bandersnatch)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/28 "2003-07-11T12:20:54Z")
Snip… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > * * * > > What’s your interest rate? > > \*\* Scylla, Please educate me. Why exactly is it relevant to know what I am paying now in order to write a new loan? I have always suspected that it is to pad the brokers’ commission, as in “I could offer this schmoe 2% less than what he is paying now, but I’ll bet he’ll jump for a 1.5%” Is there another relevant reason? Thanks (sorry for the hijack) FB ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/29 "2003-07-11T12:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > **The shape of the parabola will depend on the length of the loan, and the interest rate. But as an example, if you have a 30 year mortgage at a 6% annual rate, five years into your payments you will be 17% of the way to being paid up timewise, but will have only paid up about 7% of your loan balance. And it is not a simple calculation either.** What - you got a problem with: _m_. (1 - (1/_i_)[sup]_n_[/sup])/((1+ _i_/12)[sup]12[/sup]-1) ?? Bah - _any_ fool should know that one. pan ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/30 "2003-07-11T12:35:36Z")
**Gazelle** , Well I got the quick impression from your fan club that you aren’t one of the terminal chuckleheads around here. From my own experiences your op was silly but I guess being in my third house and my second time doing a refi (paperwork is due today) I forgot that I may have made the same blunders as you my first time with the process. **Scylla** brings up some good points that an experienced loan rep should be able to coax out a rough estimate via other questions. And I _promise_ to use feminine pronouns in your direction from now on. I still think you deserve a :wally for the op though. Glad to opine, Bubba ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/31 "2003-07-11T12:57:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*What - you got a problem with: > > _m_. (1 - (1/_i_)[sup]_n_[/sup])/((1+ _i_/12)[sup]12[/sup]-1) > > ?? > > Bah - _any_ fool should know that one.\*\* Getting out more might be a plan worth considering, my poor actuarial type friend. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/32 "2003-07-11T13:02:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Frumious Bandersnatch \* > \*\*Snip… > > Scylla, > > Please educate me. Why exactly is it relevant to know what I am paying now in order to write a new loan? > > I have always suspected that it is to pad the brokers’ commission, as in “I could offer this schmoe 2% less than what he is paying now, but I’ll bet he’ll jump for a 1.5%” > > Is there another relevant reason? > > Thanks > > (sorry for the hijack) That doesn’t bear into it. You get the current interest rate for the type of loan you qualify for. Period. No padding occurs with interest rates. It’s not even possible. At least not here. We need to know in order to figure out your ability to pay at a given interest rate, but first and most importantly to figure out if refinancing makes economic sense for you. For example, if you have a 7% mortgage, and we refinance to 6.5% with a point and closing costs, it is not likely to make economic sense for you. You won’t be saving any money. Whether or not a refi will make sense or whether you can or should do a second loan will be as dependant on the specifics of your current loan as it is on your cash flow and credit situation. FB \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Gazelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Gazelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazelle)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/33 "2003-07-11T13:39:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BubbaDog \* > **Well I got the quick impression from your fan club that you aren’t one of the terminal chuckleheads around here.** My fan club! Oh man. I’ve just been on the SDMB for a while; people know who I am; no “fans” though. I’m not in GQ enough. In fact, I’m betting there are many who would say I’m not a true “Straight Doper” because 99% of my posts are in MPSIMS. > [@](#): > > \*\*I still think you deserve a :wally for the op though. \*\*Point taken. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/34 "2003-07-11T13:48:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Being among other things, a morgtage broker, I kinda know how it works. This is a “simple calculation.” Oops, sorry about that. However, I continue to disagree as to whether it is a simple calculation. Possibly it may seem more simple to you because of your professional experience. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > What - you got a problem with: > > _m_. (1 - (1/_i_)[sup]_n_[/sup])/((1+ _i_/12)[sup]12[/sup]-1) As a matter of fact I do, and I suspect that it is an incorrect formula. What I would use is: PMT\*(1-(1/(1+i))[sup]n[/sup])/(1-1/(1+i)) = PV (i being the monthly rate, not the nominal annual rate) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/35 "2003-07-11T13:53:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Oops, sorry about that. However, I continue to disagree as to whether it is a simple calculation. Possibly it may seem more simple to you because of your professional experience. No. It seems simple to me because I have a loan calculator that does it for me. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/36 "2003-07-11T15:00:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*No. It seems simple to me because I have a loan calculator that does it for me. \*\* I just use some of the MS Excel financial functions from the drop down menu Payments = pmt(rate,#of payments,present value) keeping in mind rate = annual rate divided by 12 and # of payments = years of the loan x 12. Since I elected to escrow other costs the only tricky part is estimate taxes and insurance adders on the monthly payment. **Gazelle** my reference to your \* fan club \* was a poke at lieu. Bubba ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/37 "2003-07-11T15:38:49Z")
_Originally posted by Gazelle_ > [@](#): > > All I wanted was some preliminary information; perhaps an explanation of the process. See **Bubba** , some of us were willing to allow for this possibility instead of lowering one’s self to personal insults just because it’s the Pit and is, therefore, allowed. _Originally posted by BubbaDog_ > [@](#): > > …talking to \*\*some schmuck \*\*who appears to have no clue as to the amount of what is probably the greatest financial debt in his life. > > \*\*Gazelle seems to lack the brain power \*\*for even that effort. > > I think the rep realized that \*\*somebody that stupid \*\*might not be aware that their loan was closed. Bolding mine. I fully endorse getting after the deserving… pedophiles, road ragers, rapists, etc. But someone who just wants to comparison shop mortgages? You’re unwilling to make that distinction? Sure, it’s the Pit and you have the right to make asshole comments to anyone you choose. You also have the right to sit there and shit all over yourself as you type a post, but given the smell it’s given your replies in this thread perhaps you should reconsider. **Scylla** came in first and said the same thing you did, only in a kind and classier way. You copied his analogy (and did it poorly I might add) and quickly resorted to personal slams disproportionate to the OP. Fan club? While I consider **Gazelle** a neat person, I’d have had the same reaction in defense of anyone here unfairly slammed, even you. Come in sometime without the snarky comments and I’ll prove it to you. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/38 "2003-07-11T15:41:28Z")
**Izzy** , let _i_ be the actual annual rate, and then see what you get. I haven’t had to work this things out for a long time, but hopefully: asup[/sup][sub]_n_|[/sub] = (1 - _v_[sup]_n_[/sup])/_i_sup[/sup] where: _n_ is the number of years the payment is to be made for; _i_ is the annual interest rate; and _i_sup[/sup] = (1 + _i_/12)[sup]12[/sup] leading to my earlier formula, which is just a restatement of yours. Saying that: 1. I’ll give you that I somehow transcribed _v_ as 1/_i_ instead of 1/(1+_i_); and 2. You’re paying your payments at the beginning of the month; I’m paying mine at the end of the month (strictly, you’re using _d_sup[/sup] instead of _i_sup[/sup] in the denominator. Other than that, should be the same. But it was supposed to be a joke - no need to get quite so picky, dude! **Gary** , get out? What do you mean - they let you out of these buildings…? pan ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/39 "2003-07-11T15:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > But it was supposed to be a joke - no need to get quite so picky, dude! Don’t sweat it. I didn’t go through your formula thoroughly. But I saw the 1-(1/i)[sup]n[/sup] and figured the final answer had to be a negative number. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542/40 "2003-07-11T16:19:02Z")
Hey **lieu** Why don’t we end this right here and just agree that we have different view points about the level of rhetoric that is considered \*\*\* going too far \*\*\*? Gazelle started cussin and moaning and talking trash in the OP. I just followed up in the same spirit. It seems to me Gazelle is pretty much OK with that. In fact my rudish comments and her replies have paved the way of my downright admiration of her spirit. She dished it out, got it returned back to her and enjoyed the dialog. We both had fun. But YOU are just plain annoying with your panties all bunched up. Let it go, cut the dose in half or whatever you need to do. I’m not backing down from my statements. They fit the thread just fine. Sheesh, I join in on the ranting and suddenly I got Mother-Vigalante-stick-up-the-ass-Theresa trying to keep me after school. Bubba [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-times-do-i-have-to-say-i-dont-know/187542.md?page=3)