# How media can maintain balance when covering a conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529 "2014-07-31T22:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/21 "2014-08-01T02:38:42Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The Wiki link **BrianGlutton** posted cites sources from both sides and every one of them shows more civilians killed than combatants. No, it doesn’t. The 400+ “unknowns” say otherwise. > [@](#): > > The fact that Israeli bombs are killing large numbers of civilians is confirmed in public statements by folks like Benjamin Netanyahu, who I assume would have a pro-Israel bias. True. Every war, everywhere, killed civilians. Can you tell me what the proportion of combatant to civilian fatalities there was in the anti-Serbia NATO operation, for example? But in every Israeli operation that I have seen, more enemy combatants were killed than enemy civilians. Which, considering the militants’ hiding among civilians, is a remarkable achievement. > [@](#): > > but I don’t see anyone taking those numbers on faith, nor is the general gist of those claims incorrect. I do. [UN humanitarian affairs chief Valerie Amos told the Security Council on Thursday that over 80% of those killed in Gaza were civilians](http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2014/07/31/gaza-80-of-people-killed-were-civilians-251-children_e6e93d3f-ea74-4dee-a2a3-002615ba7969.html). And that is just one example of dozens (hell, hundreds) that I could show you. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/22 "2014-08-01T03:09:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it doesn’t. The 400+ “unknowns” say otherwise. Unknowns are unknowns – unless you have some basis for assuming the unknowns are highly biased toward combatants or civilians. Lacking any other information, I’d assume the numbers would probably just reflect the statistical distribution in the general population, which doesn’t help your case. Also, the “unknowns” doesn’t change the balance in the UN figures – there would still be a lot more civilian casualties even if _ **all** _ the unknowns were combatants. > [@Terr](#): > > … in every Israeli operation that I have seen, more enemy combatants were killed than enemy civilians. That must be based on some imaginary numbers someone made up. As we’ve just seen, that certainly isn’t the case in _ **this** _ operation. > [@Terr](#): > > I do. [UN humanitarian affairs chief Valerie Amos told the Security Council on Thursday that over 80% of those killed in Gaza were civilians](http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2014/07/31/gaza-80-of-people-killed-were-civilians-251-children_e6e93d3f-ea74-4dee-a2a3-002615ba7969.html). Where does it say they’re using only unverified Hamas numbers to reach that conclusion? I note also that you ignored my last paragraph, which I think is central to this discussion. No one could rationally argue that the general inclination of US media is anything other than a pro-Israel position. It seems that your complaint is that they should be much more rabidly zealous in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/23 "2014-08-01T03:16:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Where does it say they’re using only unverified Hamas numbers to reach that conclusion? Because they have no other sources of information for it. > [@](#): > > I note also that you ignored my last paragraph, which I think is central to this discussion. No one could rationally argue that the general inclination of US media is anything other than a pro-Israel position. [Bullsh\*t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17598937&postcount=13) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/24 "2014-08-01T03:45:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Bullsh\*t.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17598937&postcount=13) Let’s have a look: > [@](#): > > Hamas a few days ago executed 30 Palestinians they said were “collaborators”. Without a trial, of course. They also executed 20 Palestinians who protested against them. Can you point me to one MSM source that reported it? I was curious and did some Googling. First thing I found is that this _ **alleged** _ incident is attributed to “unnamed Palestinian security sources in Gaza”, and that the most prominent media who picked it up were an Israeli independent online newspaper and… the inimitable “World Net Daily”, the bottom-dwelling cesspool of disreputable pseudo-journalism. The rest of the links were mostly blogs. So the absence of the story seems to have more to do with absence of any credible sources to substantiate it. It’s called responsible journalism. Meanwhile, when an actual confirmed event occurs, like the Hamas execution of a father and son for collaborating with Israel, [CNN prominently carried the story](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.hamas.executions/). I really can’t believe we’re having a discussion that western media is somehow in the pocket of Hamas. You can’t possibly be serious. Clearly you wish the media was more adamantly pro-Israel than they already are, but the claim of “bias” in the other direction is just absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/25 "2014-08-01T04:04:34Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I really can’t believe we’re having a discussion that western media is somehow in the pocket of Hamas. You can’t possibly be serious. Clearly you wish the media was more adamantly pro-Israel than they already are, but the claim of “bias” in the other direction is just absurd. Funny how you skipped the “Another example: it has been reported, in various non-MSM news sources, that by 2012, 160 Palestinian children died building Hamas tunnels. Since the building of the tunnels continued/intensified since then, many more Palestinian children since then died building them. Have you seen this reported in any MSM sources? CBS/ABC/NBC/CNN/MSNBC/NYT/WaPo etc. etc. etc. Is this not a newsworthy item? After all, dead children! Extremely newsworthy when it can be attributed to Israel. When attributed to Hamas - meh.” What is your excuse for that one? And no, I didn’t say that they are “in the pocket of Hamas”. I am saying that the journalists in Gaza are self-censoring because of Hamas threats. And their networks and newspapers back home are keeping mum about it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/26 "2014-08-01T04:21:27Z")
I think a fair, balanced way to cover a conflict would be for the media to cover \*why \*each side is fighting. Motives, grievances, etc. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/27 "2014-08-01T04:29:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I didn’t say that they are “in the pocket of Hamas”. I am saying that the journalists in Gaza are self-censoring because of Hamas threats. And their networks and newspapers back home are keeping mum about it. So your theory is that a motley band of rebels has the entire western media under their thumb and has been able to silence them all? Okey-doke, that’s pretty much the working definition of “conspiracy theory”. And I didn’t similarly investigate the children-dying-in-tunnels story because I’m not going to go chasing down every fantasy you come up with to try to support said conspiracy theory; I thought one example was enough to expose the silliness. For what it’s worth, I do think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous zealots completely devoid of ethics, but I also think that media reporting makes that quite clear. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/28 "2014-08-01T04:32:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > For what it’s worth, I do think that Hamas are a bunch of murderous zealots completely devoid of ethics, but I also think that media reporting makes that quite clear. I don’t think media reporting even comes near. Barbati then tweeted the following in Italian and English: “ **Out of Gaza far from Hamas retaliation** : Misfired rocket killed children [yesterday] in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris.” He followed that tweet with another: “@IDFSpokesperson said truth in communique released yesterday about Shati camp massacre. It was not Israel behind it.” Have you seen any MSM story on Barbati and who threatened him? Or, for that matter, any MSM story on the fact that he confirmed that the Shati children were killed by a Hamas rocket, not by Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/29 "2014-08-01T04:41:11Z")
I think a big issue is that most people don’t really want to hear a balanced report on a conflict. Most people have existing opinions on a topic and they want to hear reports that reinforce their opinions. Offer them reports that conflict with their existing opinions and most people are going to accuse the media of being biased. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/30 "2014-08-01T04:44:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And I didn’t similarly investigate the children-dying-in-tunnels story because I’m not going to go chasing down every fantasy you come up with to try to support said conspiracy theory; I thought one example was enough to expose the silliness. Good thinking. There’s a lot of right wing heavy breathing and one blogging debunking about this, but the original _2012_ paper is difficult to locate. Still, I’d say that this is basically the embodiment of old news at best. The flag in the story -the aspect that tells you something is up- is the fact that the 160 children figure is from unnamed Hamas officials. Anyway, the website where the paper was published is down at the moment: > **[Institute for Palestine Studies](https://www.palestine-studies.org/)** > > The most reliable source of information and analysis on the Question of Palestine. > **[Institute for Palestine Studies](https://www.palestine-studies.org/)** > > The most reliable source of information and analysis on the Question of Palestine. Reddit discussion (sorry but that’s all I got for now: not really a citation at all): [http://www.redditian.com/r/WorldNews/2bxvqn](http://www.redditian.com/r/WorldNews/2bxvqn) > [@Little Nemo](#): > > I think a big issue is that most people don’t really want to hear a balanced report on a conflict. Well the Economist isn’t bad, though it certainly has a conservative British perspective. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/31 "2014-08-01T14:20:54Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > You generally get one article for free from the Economist. (If you want more, clear your cookies between stories.) So this should work for you even without a subscription. > > It’s a short article, but I hope this is within the bounds of fair use. **Protest?** This is all a **protest?!** They’ve never heard of signs and chants and bullhorns? Well . . . Why wasn’t the blockade lifted after 2012? Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/32 "2014-08-01T17:33:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I do. [UN humanitarian affairs chief Valerie Amos told the Security Council on Thursday that over 80% of those killed in Gaza were civilians](http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2014/07/31/gaza-80-of-people-killed-were-civilians-251-children_e6e93d3f-ea74-4dee-a2a3-002615ba7969.html). And that is just one example of dozens (hell, hundreds) that I could show you. And what makes you think she is relying on Hamas’ figures? Or that she is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/33 "2014-08-01T17:38:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it only “appears to be the truth” because you’re taking the numbers reported by Hamas on faith. Which just illustrates how “fair” the media is being in its reporting. So far only Time magazine dared to contradict it. > > [How Hamas Wields Gaza's Casualties as Propaganda | TIME](http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/) > > We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN’s own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR’s figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. > … > In light of evidence—provided by groups that monitor Arabic language media (like the Middle East Media Research Institute)—that Hamas has instructed Gazans to describe anyone killed as a civilian, journalists have a responsibility to convey this uncertainty to their audiences and not present figures provided by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated sources as unqualified fact. All those dead and injured children must have been quickly stripped of their guns and uniforms before being taken to hospital. Maybe Hamas counts all casualties, fighters or not, as martyrs to their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/34 "2014-08-01T18:20:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And what makes you think she is relying on Hamas’ figures? Or that she is wrong? Because UN has no capability to get its own figures. Neither does anyone else. So they all rely on Hamas’s reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/35 "2014-08-01T18:39:54Z")
> **[Forty questions for the international media in Gaza](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/31/forty-questions-for-the-international-media-in-gaza/)** > > Important questions. Don't expect any answers. Perfect. Of course, the media will never deign to answer this. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/36 "2014-08-01T18:41:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because UN has no capability to get its own figures. Neither does anyone else. So they all rely on Hamas’s reporting. So you keep saying. With the implication that Hamas is the only source of information, and everyone naively accepts it at face value. In fact it’s obviously no such thing. Even the most cursory reading on the subject reveals information coming from many and varied agencies including B’Tselem, the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Israeli Defense Forces, Palestinian Ministry of Health, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the UN World Health Organization, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch, the International Institute for Counter-Terrorism, and of course all the media observers. While probably none of these sources can provide complete or necessarily accurate information, they do in the aggregate provide general corroboration of ballpark numbers and likely civilian/combatant casualty ratios. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/37 "2014-08-01T18:49:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because UN has no capability to get its own figures. Neither does anyone else. So they all rely on Hamas’s reporting. That’s nonsense. The UN has people on the ground in Gaza. The school that was shelled last week was a UN school. A number of the hospitals in the area are staffed by UN personnel. The UN says a number of its people have been killed in the fighting. You can argue that the UN itself is a biased reporter, but they certainly have some means of coming up with numbers, certainly better than anyone other then Israel or Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/38 "2014-08-01T18:51:02Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > So you keep saying. With the implication that Hamas is the only source of information, and everyone naively accepts it at face value. In fact it’s obviously no such thing. Even the most cursory reading on the subject reveals information coming from many and varied agencies including B’Tselem, the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Israeli Defense Forces, Palestinian Ministry of Health, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the UN World Health Organization, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch, the International Institute for Counter-Terrorism, and of course all the media observers. While probably none of these sources can provide complete or necessarily accurate information, they do in the aggregate provide general corroboration of ballpark numbers and likely civilian/combatant casualty ratios. Do explain exactly how all those “varied agencies” have the capability to get any casualty numbers from Gaza except through Hamas reporting. And “media observers”. ROTFLMAO. It is to laugh. Did you see that reply from NYT that claimed that NONE of their Gaza photographers had seen a Palestinian with a gun? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/39 "2014-08-01T18:59:14Z")
Because, as the previous poster just said, most of those agencies have observers on the ground, and they have analytic capabilities. As for the media, yes, your delusion that Hamas’ motley band of rebels have ironclad control over all the world’s media and gets them to do their bidding has already been duly noted. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529/40 "2014-08-01T18:59:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do explain exactly how all those “varied agencies” have the capability to get any casualty numbers from Gaza except through Hamas reporting. > > And “media observers”. ROTFLMAO. It is to laugh. Did you see that reply from NYT that claimed that NONE of their Gaza photographers had seen a Palestinian with a gun? Have you considered it might be because Israel undoubtedly has drones hovering around, and any armed non-Israelis walking around the streets is likely to draw artillery fire, or maybe a helicopter gunship? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-media-can-maintain-balance-when-covering-a-conflict/694529.md?page=3)