# How might "service animals" legally and morally be limited to actual service animals performing a service? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 6, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581 "2021-12-06T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/81 "2021-12-07T22:39:43Z")
Apparently, you won’t be satisfied by the dog simply not disturbing you - which is something you might achieve by speaking to your neighbor or to the management. You might even be able to get the dog that annoyed you removed if you speak to management - because 1) There is no indication that you have any reason to believe it _is_ an ESA and 2) There is no absolute right to have an ESA regardless of how it behaves and I haven’t seen anyone say there is. I wonder why it is that you seem to encounter so many assholes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/82 "2021-12-07T22:47:33Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The subset of human beings who are appropriate to check a passport is not the same subset of human beings who are appropriate to verify a dog’s status as a service dog. More or less, with the addition of Doctors- yes they are. That is the point. > [@DrDeth](#): > > If you question that, then you are questioning their disability. That is ethically, morally and legally wrong, unless you are their MD or are a few Government employees ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/83 "2021-12-07T22:55:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > More or less, with the addition of Doctors- yes they are. That is the point. And it’s a point of dispute. If abusers are (for example) bringing ordinary pets into hotels and misrepresenting their dogs as service animals, only verification at the hotel can put a stop to that. Ask a disabled person with a genuine well-trained service dog if they feel it would be disrespectful or burdensome to take 15 seconds to verify their animal’s status at (say) hotel check-in in order to catch the cheats, and I’m pretty confident what their response will be. Since most genuine service dogs are very _obviously_ well trained, my guess is that in practise they would never be questioned anyway. This ill-conceived notion that it’s disrespectful to allow an appropriate person to even _check_ is only benefitting the cheats. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/84 "2021-12-08T02:11:41Z")
The service animal stuff is getting a little out of hand: > **[An Arizona Man Registered an Actual Beehive as a Service Animal](https://www.vice.com/en/article/59nn8k/this-man-registered-an-actual-beehive-as-a-service-animal)** > > Just because he can! ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/85 "2021-12-08T05:07:29Z")
Hotels are a special case, though; an untrained dog could do much more damage during an overnight stay than it could in a retail or restaurant environment. Airplanes likewise; if the dog starts misbehaving, they can’t order its owner to take it outside, tempting though it may be. In general, I certainly don’t think people should have to show papers every time they enter a business. Note that currently, although the ADA provides a definition for service animals, there is no official government agency which certifies particular animals as having met those qualifications. Ultimately the only “proof” that people can provide is a letter from their physician and/or some certification from the trainer, both of which are easily forged and/or purchasable online. So I’m not sure that allowing certain businesses the right to check for papers would be very helpful; probably it would be better to just exempt hotels from that part of the ADA and allow them, like airlines, to make their own judgments. In general, though…correct me if I’m wrong, but nobody has in any way suggested that service/emotional support animals are exempt from the laws that apply to ordinary nuisance pets, correct? They’re exempt from blanket no-pets policies, but that doesn’t mean they’re allowed to bark all day or otherwise do the sorts of things that inspire blanket no-pets policies. Nobody has ever been successfully sued for refusing to accommodate a service animal who was actually causing a real problem, correct? So maybe we should just say that well-behaved animals are generally allowed in public places, and poorly behaved animals aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/86 "2021-12-08T05:11:40Z")
> Keller said that he hopes that his beehive helps to make his point: that it can be too easy to get a meaningless “certification” for a service dog. “It’s making people believe all animals are service animals when they’re not,” he said. “And there’s a clear difference.” So…he gave his money to a scam website in order to make the point that it’s too easy to give your money to scam websites? I suspect fighting ignorance in that way will definitely take longer than he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/87 "2021-12-08T07:10:47Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > I actually used to date a woman with an MSW down here who made her living writing out “psychological need” letters to anyone who had a pet and $200. We own a condo in a 55+ community in Florida - and it has a “no pets, nohow” rule. The day we moved the in-laws in, I walked past a neighbor’s window and glanced at the cat sitting happily on the windowsill. Evidently it’s rather common for residents to have a letter such as you describe. Honestly, I think it’s an absurd rule. Yes, dogs poop - but other pets are pretty much always indoors, barring the occasional moron who might let a cat out. And these people are all pretty old - I suspect a lot of them simply don’t have the ability to keep up with a dog’s walking needs, but if they do, it’s a very good form of exercise. Any dogs or cats let loose would, I suspect, wind up as snacks for the local reptilian population. I told MIL that if they wanted to “need a pet for comfort”, I was pretty sure the landlady would look the other way. They didn’t want the hassle even of a cat, so they did not bother. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/88 "2021-12-08T07:20:18Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > the occasional moron who might let a cat out Yes, there are constantly signs posted all around, LOST CAT, in a no-pets community. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/89 "2021-12-08T16:47:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > That’s the thing, seeing-eye dogs are just astonishing. Preternaturally calm and professional in crowded places where you’d expect _any_ dog to get either excited or anxious. I have a blind friend I met at work, so I knew her guide dogs. They were unofficial coworkers. And once she (my friend) was at work and didn’t need the dog for a while, she’d remove the harness. That was the signal to the dog that she was off-duty. Her first dog was such a sweetie. I used to make chocolate cookies every Friday because the coffee pot was in my office suite. The dog once off-harness would sneak down the hall and try to cadge cookies. Very sadly, she developed cancer. We were all devastated. She had an “in Memoriam” notice in the department newletter. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/90 "2021-12-08T16:49:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The secret is that any dog who is the slightest bit aggressive gets career changed immediately, and only dogs that are the best become breeders. Another friend of mine worked for an organization that trained disaster recovery dogs. A _lot_ of their dogs were guide dog school drop-outs. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/91 "2021-12-08T16:50:04Z")
When they are service dogs with this temperament and this level of exquisite training, I’d prefer my plane or hotel or apartment building be full of _just_ service dogs and no annoying humans. Well, okay, I guess their owners can come. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/92 "2021-12-08T17:06:22Z")
🙂 👍 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/93 "2021-12-08T20:58:43Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > And once she (my friend) was at work and didn’t need the dog for a while, she’d remove the harness. That was the signal to the dog that she was off-duty. Yes, that’s one of the things you train the dog for, the difference between working (with a jacket on for puppies) and not working. We took our dogs to restaurants all the time. No one objected, since they had their jackets on, but we wouldn’t have been offended at all if someone asked for their documents. BTW in Germany there is a very different attitude. Buses have dog fares, and dogs are in places they aren’t allowed here. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/94 "2021-12-08T21:02:58Z")
My dad lived in France for a while and joked that it was MUCH harder to find a restaurant that would allow you to bring in children than would allow you to bring your dog. Thing is, he wasn’t all that far off the mark, and for good reason. A dog in a restaurant is helpful for cleanup, kids are the ones who MAKE messes. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/95 "2021-12-08T21:13:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We took our dogs to restaurants all the time When we out to lunch the dog always came with us. No problems. One Japanese restaurant loved to see us and always saved her nice cuts of beef! There was a great group picture at one Christmas lunch where the dog was sitted in a chair with everybody else. Wish I still had it. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/96 "2021-12-09T14:50:46Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > Until you decide to rent out a room on that property, and refuse someone because they have a legally recognized service animal. > > > > You seem to be confusing private property from a business that needs to follow public accomodation laws. > > I live in a community (NB Doreen: community, community, community) that has in its bylaws, which I am committing to following prior to being permitted to buy my home inside this community (NB Doreen), a prohibition against any property-owner having any animal on the premises other than legally recognized service animals. My question remains: how can I have this codicil, written into our bylaws, enforced? This has NOTHING to do with public vs. private accommodation laws. Are there other homeowners that feel the way as you do about the issue? Can you find some allies? Do you ever attend your HOA’s annual membership meeting and bring up issues that bother you, like non-enforcement of “no pet” rules? I think the factual answer to your question, if there is one, is that you need to push on your HOA board to enforce the rules. Inform them, in writing, of residents that are harboring pets illegally. If they won’t take action, get some allies and vote them out. Even then, you may not have any recourse against people that currently own pets. I used to be on the board of a no pets apartment building in NYC, and legally, the enforcement of the rules has to be consistent. If someone has had their pet for several months and hasn’t tried to hide or conceal the fact that they have a pet and the building hasn’t taken any action, they may not be able to require the owner to evict the pet. This law is in place for a couple of reasons. One is to keep buildings from using a pet policy as cover for other retaliatory actions. The other is a recognition that owners become attached to their pets. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/97 "2021-12-09T15:25:01Z")
I used to work with a guy who lived in a “no-pets” condo complex, and he told stories of neighbors looking in each other’s trash for evidence of pet-food, to rat on their neighbors. So yeah, there are certainly ways for “no-pets” communities to enforce that. > [@Roger\_That](#): > > > [@SmartAleq](#): > > > > You seem to have missed the step where you reported the dog’s behavior and made a complaint about it > > I’m trying to figure out in advance of putting myself to all that trouble whether or not there’s anything that can be done to enforce the regulation. I suspected not, and after asking here, I’m convinced that the person might, if he wants to, defy the regulations for years to come. Easier to move myself inside unless I can be convinced that the regs can be enforced. This seems very defeatist of you. If there’s a dog that barks a lot in a community with rules against pets, you are probably not the only person annoyed, and I’m sure it depends on the rules of the community, (which you are in a better position to know than any of us) but a community might be able to do anything from fining the offender to forcing them to get rid of the animal or sell their unit. Or if it’s a rental unit, they can evict someone who violates the rental agreement. Step one is to figure out whose dog it is, and complain to them. There may be something they can do. For instance, maybe they hosted a relative who came with a dog in tow, and next time they can tell the relative “no”. And it may be a lot easier for them to do that if they can say, “sorry, it’s against the rules and last time I got complaints” than if it’s just “no, I let you last time but this time I won’t.” Step two is to complain to whatever authority the community has. The condo board, the apartment super, whatever. “Can we change the rules?” is something to consider if steps 1 and 2 fail to offer you the relief you seek. It may be completely unnecessary. It’s probably completely unnecessary. But if it is necessary, yeah, it might be easier to move to a place that enforces its no-pets policy. I know they exist. I know a couple of people who live in such places now. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/98 "2021-12-09T15:37:46Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This seems very defeatist of you. Does it? You seem to assume that I should go through all the complicated steps you describe BEFORE I should figure out if the end result can be defeated by the ADA, which is what I’ve suspected, and have had reinforced here, is the case. See Ann Hedonia’s post just above yours for how difficult enforcement can be. Many of the HOA board members, here and everywhere, are themselves per-owners who are not seeking to get the regs enforced, but rather to protect their fellow pet-owners, while blaming the ADA for their decision. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/99 "2021-12-09T15:41:42Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Many of the HOA board members, here and everywhere I know from personal experience that the “everywhere” part is false. You may be right about where you are. It’s hard to say, as you don’t seem to be a very careful reporter of the evidence. If it’s true that your HOA board is largely made up of pet owners who aren’t interested in enforcing “no pet” rules, then your choices are to live with it or move. But if it’s uncommon to hear annoying barking, and you suddenly do, it’s STILL worth investigating that incident. As I mentioned above, there’s a decent chance that the relevant resident can mitigate the problem going forward. And they are much more likely to do so if you complain. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581/100 "2021-12-09T15:44:09Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Does it? You seem to assume that I should go through all the complicated steps you describe BEFORE I should figure out if the end result can be defeated by the ADA, which is what I’ve suspected, and have had reinforced here, is the case. See Ann Hedonia’s post just above yours for how difficult enforcement can be. Again, you will not be successful if your goal is to either eliminate all animals or to eliminate ESAs - but if I were in your shoes, my goal would be to not be unreasonably disturbed by the ESAs that must be permitted and that is a very achievable goal. Remember, the law doesn’t give them an absolute right to have an ESA regardless of person’s or animal’s behavior. > [@Roger\_That](#): > > Many of the HOA board members, here and everywhere, are themselves per-owners who are not seeking to get the regs enforced, but rather to protect their fellow pet-owners, while blaming the ADA for their decision. I really doubt it’s many - because if it was many, I’m sure they could change the rules. No matter what the rules were when you bought/rented, they can always be changed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-service-animals-legally-and-morally-be-limited-to-actual-service-animals-performing-a-service/955581.md?page=6)