# How might THE HOBBIT have gone differently if Gimli had been a character? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 21, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432 "2012-10-21T17:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/21 "2012-10-22T17:55:43Z")
The broader question is what the dwarves were planning to do at all. It must have come up during the discussions of the journey, or at least over one of their camp fires. “Let’s say we make it all the way to the dragon … then what?” It seems like Gandalf would have pressed that point with them, and not just sent them off on a suicide mission. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/22 "2012-10-22T18:16:22Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I am still waiting for the adventures of his crotchety grandpa, Gróin. You had to be a dick and put a taint on this thread… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/23 "2012-10-22T20:25:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, probably a well-roasted dwarf and a well-roasted hobbit. The only reason Smaug wasn’t able to roast Bilbo was that it took him a while to figure out which way he came in, and therefore where he was. But if he had seen Gimli and roasted him, he probably would have caught Bilbo in the same blast, too. Or maybe dwarves taste better raw–remember, several of the Dwarven rings were destroyed when their bearers got et by dragons. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/24 "2012-10-22T20:27:12Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > The broader question is what the dwarves were planning to do at all. It must have come up during the discussions of the journey, or at least over one of their camp fires. “Let’s say we make it all the way to the dragon … then what?” It seems like Gandalf would have pressed that point with them, and not just sent them off on a suicide mission. In some of the extracurricular writing JRRT did (_Unifinished Tales_, maybe?), Gandalf actually does kind of admit to shoving everyone along to Erebor without a good notion of how in the hell they were going to kill Smaug. He just knew that Smaug would be devastating for the good guys if it came to open war with Mordor, knew he had to come up with a way to take him out before then, and he had a hunch that somehow this motley group could do something about him. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/25 "2012-10-22T20:43:07Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Balin was my favourite Dwarf. Totally! And he was great when he was in Jefferson Airplane too. 😃 Anyone care to fanwank how that happened? Could be fun. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/26 "2012-10-22T20:47:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > A couple of things to contribute. Bilbo is an unreliable narrator, having lied in the first edition about how he obtained the ring from Gollum. Bilbo is also spinning a yarn and not doing history, which Frodo and Sam were. > > Next, the Dwarves were no match for Smaug and knew it. Yeah, by the point that Bilbo was writing his memoirs, he’d been toting about and obsessing over the One Ring for quite a while. No effort at all to think he’d redacted his story to make himself look better from its influence. Although, it does seem in the _Silmarillion_ that dwarves in their full battle gear are remarkably resistant to dragonfire. Maybe not equipped for Smaug or not enough numbers for Smaug, but dunno if “no match” is the best description of the matchup. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/27 "2012-10-22T21:02:01Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I am still waiting for the adventures of his crotchety grandpa, Gróin. > [@Chimera](#): > > You had to be a dick and put a taint on this thread… > 😉 I saw what BOTH of you did, there. Knock it off, or I’ll ask **skald** to release the bees. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/28 "2012-10-22T21:23:53Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > The broader question is what the dwarves were planning to do at all. It must have come up during the discussions of the journey, or at least over one of their camp fires. “Let’s say we make it all the way to the dragon … then what?” It seems like Gandalf would have pressed that point with them, and not just sent them off on a suicide mission. This probably explains why Balin & Co. thought it was a good idea to go back to Moria when Durin’s Bane was still there… “Hey, it turned out okay in Lonely Mountain. What’s the worst that could happen?” ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/29 "2012-10-22T21:45:24Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > The broader question is what the dwarves were planning to do at all. It must have come up during the discussions of the journey, or at least over one of their camp fires. “Let’s say we make it all the way to the dragon … then what?” It seems like Gandalf would have pressed that point with them, and not just sent them off on a suicide mission. Thorin had a plan. If he got the Arkenstone and enough other treasure to cover the cost of the voyage, he would have considered it a success. I think the plan went something like, steal Arkenstone, raise up Dwarves to come back and kick dragon butt. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/30 "2012-10-22T21:49:13Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > And he was great when he was in Jefferson Airplane too. 😃 > Anyone care to fanwank how that happened? Could be fun. Wouldn’t that make Gimli the _second_ dwarf to reach The West. Since Balin also had a Wooden Ship? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/31 "2012-10-22T21:50:31Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Thorin had a plan. If he got the Arkenstone and enough other treasure to cover the cost of the voyage, he would have considered it a success. I think the plan went something like, steal Arkenstone, raise up Dwarves to come back and kick dragon butt. I know the third step is profit. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/32 "2012-10-22T22:57:58Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > This probably explains why Balin & Co. thought it was a good idea to go back to Moria when Durin’s Bane was still there… “Hey, it turned out okay in Lonely Mountain. What’s the worst that could happen?” I have often thought the same. That was an epic return to glory for the Dwarves and they would be heartened by the heroism involved. They may have felt well-nigh invulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/33 "2012-10-25T01:36:36Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Although, it does seem in the _Silmarillion_ that dwarves in their full battle gear are remarkably resistant to dragonfire. Maybe not equipped for Smaug or not enough numbers for Smaug, but dunno if “no match” is the best description of the matchup. Good point–I forgot about their face masks. I don’t think they were mentioned at all in The Hobbit. That would be a cool thing to see in PJ’s movie version (though, of course, you try to never put actors into helmets that cover their faces for very long, so I doubt we’ll see it). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/34 "2012-10-25T13:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > (though, of course, you try to never put actors into helmets that cover their faces for very long, so I doubt we’ll see it). You can get away with it if the masks are themselves distinctive enough, and it’s clear who’s wearing which mask. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/35 "2012-10-25T14:18:18Z")
We were told in Chapter 1 that hobbits can move “quietly and quickly.” Bilbo was going into the cave to scout things out, cat-burglar-like, sneaking in quietly. Gimli (and any of the other dwarves, for that matter) would have rattled and clattered, “making a noise like elephants” and alerted Smaug. So, the reality is that an experienced burglar would NOT have asked any other dwarves to come along. The hobbit does have a paragraph about > [@](#): > > dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don’t expect too much. If this is Bilbo’s (later) interpolation, I think it reflects his (limited) experience with dwarves and his inexperience as a burglar. If this is Tolkien’s comment, then I like the prior posts suggesting a resurgence of heroism amongst some of the dwarves following the death of Smaug. Another thought: perhaps Gimli was sent to the Council of Elrond precisely because he was DIFFERENT from the other dwarves. “Good idea, Gloin, send him off to Rivendell, maybe he’ll lose some of these new-fangled notions of heroism and courage. Or maybe he won’t come back.” ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/36 "2012-10-25T15:43:38Z")
I always Tolkien also didn’t think much of the dwarves in general. He was very much in love with all things elvish, obviously, and the beardies got shorted (so to speak). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/37 "2012-10-31T12:50:17Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > We were told in Chapter 1 that hobbits can move “quietly and quickly.” Bilbo was going into the cave to scout things out, cat-burglar-like, sneaking in quietly. Gimli (and any of the other dwarves, for that matter) would have rattled and clattered, “making a noise like elephants” and alerted Smaug. So, the reality is that an experienced burglar would NOT have asked any other dwarves to come along. Oh, I don’t think Bilbo genuinely wanted them to come along. He was annoyed with all the dwarvish racket as far back as the troll adventure, before he had become competent at all or had his ring. By that point I think he was savvy enough to understand both intellectually and emotionally that he simply had no use for the company of a single Dwarf, or even all 13, in Smaug’s lair. As I wrote in the OP, he was simply mocking them for the hell of it. I think it fair to say that he LOVED the Dwarfs (some of them, at least) but didn’t much like them. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432/38 "2012-12-05T19:42:35Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > In some of the extracurricular writing JRRT did (_Unifinished Tales_, maybe?), Gandalf actually does kind of admit to shoving everyone along to Erebor without a good notion of how in the hell they were going to kill Smaug. He just knew that Smaug would be devastating for the good guys if it came to open war with Mordor, knew he had to come up with a way to take him out before then, and he had a hunch that somehow this motley group could do something about him. I’m sure you’re thinking of this: [Unfinished Tales - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quest_of_Erebor) You can find it in _Unfinished Tales_, and also in the excellent _The Annotated Hobbit_. It’s great to see Gandalf explaining at length what his thinking was, and what broader agenda he was pursuing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-might-the-hobbit-have-gone-differently-if-gimli-had-been-a-character/638432.md?page=1)