# how missing a comma can cost millions ...... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 16, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336 "2017-03-16T20:04:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/1 "2017-03-16T20:04:53Z")
read this on msn [MSN](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lack-of-oxford-comma-costs-maine-company-millions-in-overtime-dispute/ar-BBycPZW?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp) My thing is this don’t law firms usually have someone looking over contracts for this type error or did someone just get lucky for noticing it ? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/2 "2017-03-16T20:13:13Z")
1. Of its a complex contract then it’s very unlikely that any one person knows everything in it. 2. Contract language is frequently reused from contracts that “worked” without necessarily a lot of scrutiny. 3. The person who wrote that sentence and the person who reviewed it probably knew what they meant to say at the time and it didn’t occur to them that it might be ambiguous. 4. Contract language is iften haphazardly and chaotically amended and changed during the course of negotiations and no one ever has every single possible consequence right to mind. 5. Mist contracts never run into trouble so there’s usually only so much cost-benefit to agonizing over every single comma. 6. Very often the parties themselves allow an ambiguity to go through thinking that if it ever comes up they can get it interpreted in their own favor. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/3 "2017-03-16T20:25:43Z")
Pardon impossible to be sent to Siberia. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/4 "2017-03-16T20:35:42Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Pardon impossible to be sent to Siberia. Colorless green **ideas sleep** furiously. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/5 "2017-03-16T20:37:10Z")
The comma wasn’t in the legislation, not the contract with the drivers. Here’s the relevant section: > [@](#): > > The canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing, packing for shipment or distribution of: > > (1) Agricultural produce; > > (2) Meat and fish products; and > > (3) Perishable foods. The company argued the phrase ‘packing for shipment or distribution’ was disjunctive and covered two activities - packing for shipment, and distribution. The drivers successfully argued that the lack of the comma meant the phrase only covered packing (whether for shipment or distribution) and not just distribution - which they were involved in. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/6 "2017-03-16T20:45:36Z")
“Let’s eat, Grandpa!” vs. “Let’s eat Grandpa!” ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/7 "2017-03-16T20:50:40Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > The comma wasn’t in the legislation, not the contract with the drivers. > > Here’s the relevant section: > > The company argued the phrase ‘packing for shipment or distribution’ was disjunctive and covered two activities - packing for shipment, and distribution. The drivers successfully argued that the lack of the comma meant the phrase only covered packing (whether for shipment or distribution) and not just distribution - which they were involved in. Right. The local [NPR affiliate’s discussion](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/16/520381718/the-oxford-comma-great-for-listing-pontificating-and-winning-court-cases) of this particular newslet was couched very specifically in terms of the missing [Oxford comma](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/what-is-the-oxford-comma-and-why-do-people-care-so-much-about-it/). I have never heard that phrase used in news media before this day. Moral of the story: GRAMMAR MATTERS. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/8 "2017-03-16T20:52:03Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > The company argued the phrase ‘packing for shipment or distribution’ was disjunctive and covered two activities - packing for shipment, and distribution. The drivers successfully argued that the lack of the comma meant the phrase only covered packing (whether for shipment or distribution) and not just distribution - which they were involved in. Which, to me, is pretty clearly wrong. Not based not any missing comma, but based on the location of the “or” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/9 "2017-03-16T20:53:27Z")
That situation was well covered in [Eats, Shoots and Leaves](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=eats+shoots+and+leaves). ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/10 "2017-03-16T20:56:01Z")
I read the whole link it explained clearly that Maine has guidelines for the use of commas that appears to forbid the use of that comma. I always use it for clarity and cannot think of a single argument against it. Clarity, clarity, and clarity. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/11 "2017-03-16T20:58:13Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > “Let’s eat, Grandpa!” > > vs. > > “Let’s eat Grandpa!” [or](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-W_dQ5VolgcE/UL_KskFpA7I/AAAAAAAADMU/Aud-vI_SC6U/s1600/oxfordcomma.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/12 "2017-03-16T21:06:57Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I read the whole link it explained clearly that Maine has guidelines for the use of commas that appears to forbid the use of that comma. I always use it for clarity and cannot think of a single argument against it. Clarity, clarity, and clarity. I invited the stripper, JFK, and Stalin. Did I invite three people or two, one of whom is a stripping deceased us president? Sometimes, it is clearer to remove the oxford comma so as to avoid the appearance of an appositive. I invited the stripper, JFK and Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/13 "2017-03-16T21:18:18Z")
NSFW (language): [Who Gives A Fuck About The Oxford Comma?](https://youtu.be/P_i1xk07o4g) ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/14 "2017-03-16T21:59:30Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > “Let’s eat, Grandpa!” > > vs. > > “Let’s eat Grandpa!” [Stop clubbing, baby seals!](https://assets.pando.com/_versions/2012/02/stop-clubbing-baby-seals_featured.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/15 "2017-03-16T22:02:03Z")
Then there’s this one: A law originally said there was no tariff on foreign fruit-plants and some other things. Then it was revised and by accident it said there was no tariff on foreign fruit, plants, and the other things. Cost the U.S. government the equivalent of over $38 million in today’s money. Cite: [The Most Expensive Typo in Legislative History - Priceonomics](https://priceonomics.com/the-most-expensive-typo-in-legislative-history/) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/16 "2017-03-16T22:28:56Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I read the whole link it explained clearly that Maine has guidelines for the use of commas that appears to forbid the use of that comma. I always use it for clarity and cannot think of a single argument against it. Clarity, clarity, and clarity. The guidelines also say that clarity is paramount (no link sorry, it was in an article I read about it.) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/17 "2017-03-16T23:19:19Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > My thing is this don’t law firms usually have someone… And lacking a colon can make you sound incoherent. Actually, lacking a colon can make you severely constipated. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/18 "2017-03-16T23:44:10Z")
It continues to surprise me that lawyers don’t yet have a formal language for contracts, or even a semi-formal one. This problem would be solved trivially by a better specification: excluded\_overtime\_tuples := cross\_product({“canning”, “processing”, “preserving”, “freezing”, “drying”, “marketing”, “storing”, “packing for shipment”, “distribution”}, {“agricultural produce”, “meat products”, “fish products”, “perishable foods”}) ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/19 "2017-03-17T00:16:02Z")
I was taught the Oxford comma, and find that it increases clarity in all but a very few cases. Unfortunately the business where I work in communications follows similar guidelines to those of Maine (and most news outlets) and prefers that it not be used. I have tried to continue using it outside of work, but it’s very hard to maintain two separate standards. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336/20 "2017-03-17T01:12:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. Of its a complex contract then it’s very unlikely that any one person knows everything in it. I have always read every word of every contract that I’ve negotiated on behalf of clients or that I’ve been a party to in terms of my job. I’m not so diligent in my personal life, like for instance, I won’t read the whole contract when I rent a car, but professionally I read them all, even the 300 page ones. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-missing-a-comma-can-cost-millions/782336.md?page=2)