# How much blame do the citizens of Gaza deserve? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192 "2009-01-27T06:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/81 "2009-01-28T17:43:44Z")
Yeah, the Zionist immigration brought a lot of capital into the region. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/82 "2009-01-28T18:13:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What’s your point then? Jews lived there the whole time. Recently more immigrated with the intention of having their own independent state. Arabs (of several different tribes and religions/sects) lived there the whole time. Recently (in the last few centuries) they also increased their immigration into the region with the intention of having THEIR own independent state (well, several groups had different goals and different views of what an independent state constituted and for whom, but then I’m glossing over a lot here). > > What point are you trying to make with your statement exactly? > > -XT First, that immigration in the last 50 years has a higher cultural/political impact as last few centuries migrations. There’s nobody alive who saw the last centuries of Ottoman Empire, but there still are quite a few people who were there in '48. But more that the Palestinian man\_in\_the\_street idea that the Israeli invaded their lands, while not valid in the grander scheme of things, is based on a kernel of facts, not thin air, and could certainly convince someone inclined to believe the Israeli aggressive/nefarious based on the checkpoints and so on. Understand, this is not _my_ viewpoint, I’m just trying to figure out what \*they \*see, believe and understand, understand their vision of history, their historical narrative, the data available to them and so on - and trying to play their Devil’s advocate in the process [QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Eh, so? It’s still 1099-1291, two hundred years in the middle there that it didn’t belong to anyone but Europeans. And why are you arguing about what ‘the muslims’ think? It’s not like they ran the country. That’s like arguing that the US is a Christian nation because the christians think so. [/QUOTE] That is precisely my point. See above. [QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Not for those terrorists sons of bitches, no. Why would you think that? [/QUOTE] Well, aren’t the Russians as subtle and proportionate in putting down the insurrection as…something that’s as far as subtle and proportionate as can possibly be conceived ? I must admit, I have the barest of knowledge of that situation. [QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Technically, there was a few hundred years the Romans threw the Jews out for, and the Christians killed a lot of them, too. Funny how previous to '45, the jews and the arabs got along pretty decently. [/QUOTE] The sad thing is, it’s true. Maybe the US should have invaded both of them to give them a unifying common ennemy. Dammit, where’s Bush when you need him ? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/83 "2009-01-28T18:19:54Z")
The Germans really and truly believed that the Jews were the cause of all of their problems, that they were the primary reason that Germany lost WWI and that they were secretly working with the communists to destroy Germany (this isn’t an exhaustive list of everything they believed btw). The Europeans believed that the Jews were evil and that they occasionally used Christian children in their foul rights, drinking the blood of said children during the heights of their celebrations. American’s during colonial times felt that blacks were sub-human and that it was a white persons Christian duty to enslave them…for their own good. What I’m getting at here is that just because some people believe something doesn’t make it true. The history of that region is fairly well documented. Many of the people there (and here on this message board) simply refuse to actually LOOK at that history, instead choosing to believe a mostly fabricated version that highlights certain things and takes others out of context. All of which is moot because it really doesn’t have any bearing on the actual question of the OP. -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/84 "2009-01-28T18:22:43Z")
Kobol: there are numerous problems with your gloss. To begin with, your claim that immigration is an act of aggression is one that holds up neither in precedent nor in international law nor in common sense. When the Irish had the Potato Famine and fled in great droves to the United States, we’d have been out of our minds if we treated that as an act of aggression and reacted as sovereign states tend to do when faced with aggression. Second, as pointed out, you can’t have “Muslim lands” ,and the people you point to conquered the land just as surely as the Crusaders did, anyway. Further, the analogy between the Arab citizens of the region of Palestine under, say, the Ottomans and the Native Americans is exceedingly poor. It wasn’t a question of them living on land for ever and ever and simply not having deeds to it. It was a situation where it was fully possible to privately own land, and there was a centuries long legal and societal framework set up for private property ownership, but some people simply didn’t own land. Your analogy with Tibetans is also flawed. It would have to entail Tibetans moving to Texas, and then _the sovereign state of the United States dissolving_, with no new sovereign to ultimately replace it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/85 "2009-01-28T18:31:18Z")
Oh and: > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The language of article 31 has nothing to do with Israel. Just Judiasm. Speaking of which, Hamas’ pablum about respecting all religions also doesn’t apply to Judaism. Which of course Sevastopol cannot admit as that would make his defense of Jew-hating that much harder to pull. And defending Hamas’ goals is important to him. The fact is that Hamas can not only differentiate between Judaism, Jews, an Israel, they make quite clear that they consider all three to be enemies of Islam. > [@](#): > > Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. “May the cowards never sleep.” Which makes their intentions quite clear considered that Sevastopol forgot to cut out the operative sentence that: > [@](#): > > [Hamas/Islam] is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it So they’re saying it’s theoretically possible for Jews to live under Hamas rule if they weren’t hostile to Islam. But then they specifically say Jews and Judaism as well are hostile to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/86 "2009-01-28T19:06:13Z")
It is extraordinary enough that **Sev** believes that the claim that some group might have genocidal ambitions against a different group, let alone the Jews, is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence. Yeah, it just flies in the face of all history. :rolleyes: As to the line in the sand regarding what is and isn’t a war crime … [The Economist](http://www.economist.com/world/mideast-africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12953753) puts it thusly: > [@](#): > > although every civilian death is a tragedy, “not every civilian death is a crime”. War crimes typically involve deliberate brutality or recklessness. The modern laws of conflict do not seek to ban war, or even to eliminate the killing of civilians; they merely seek to stop the most egregious abuses and to limit harm to civilians as far as possible. > > Short of arguing that Israel is deliberately massacring Palestinians (if so, many more would probably have been killed and Israel’s warning leaflets would be superfluous), judging war crimes depends on the facts of specific incidents and subjective legal concepts. Is Israel discriminating between civilians and combatants? Are its actions proportionate to the military gain? And is it taking proper care to spare civilians in the crowded Strip? > > A British government manual on the laws of war admits that, for example, the principle of proportionality “is not always straightforward”, not least because attempting to reduce the danger to civilians may increase the risk to one’s own forces. Moreover, if the enemy puts civilians at risk by deliberately placing military targets near them, “this is a factor to be taken into account in favour of the attackers”. > > Israel makes precisely such arguments. Its aggressive tactics, it says, are justified by the need to protect Israeli forces, and Hamas is to blame for civilian deaths by hiding rockets and other weapons in mosques. According to Israeli officials, Hamas’s top leaders are hiding in a bunker under the overstretched Shifa hospital (which, however, has not been attacked). > > The laws of war have their roots, in part, in early worries about the impact of military technology such as air bombardment and poison gases. But international law has found it easier to deal with low-tech mass killings at close quarters, as in the Rwandan genocide of 1994, than with the rights and wrongs of Western-style air campaigns. Civilians are repeatedly hit by NATO aircraft in Afghanistan, but there are only regrets, not court-martials. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/87 "2009-01-28T19:12:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Kobol: First, a nitpick : that’s 3 threads you keep spelling my nick with two "o"s. Is there a point to the misspelling, or ? > [@](#): > > there are numerous problems with your gloss. To begin with, your claim that immigration is an act of aggression is one that holds up neither in precedent nor in international law nor in common sense. When the Irish had the Potato Famine and fled in great droves to the United States, we’d have been out of our minds if we treated that as an act of aggression and reacted as sovereign states tend to do when faced with aggression. Did the Irish wish to create an independant state and enforce it ? Did they, outside of the NYPD ? 😉 Hell, come to that, didn’t the Irish face violence and resentment when they got off the boats (_Gangs of New York_ is my cite :)) Besides, I realize that at heart, it’s equivalent to “durn forunurs stealing our jobs”… but since that sentiment certainly exists in our countries, it would be unfair to blame it in others. > [@](#): > > Second, as pointed out, you can’t have “Muslim lands” ,and the people you point to conquered the land just as surely as the Crusaders did, anyway. Further, the analogy between the Arab citizens of the region of Palestine under, say, the Ottomans and the Native Americans is exceedingly poor. It wasn’t a question of them living on land for ever and ever and simply not having deeds to it. It was a situation where it was fully possible to privately own land, and there was a centuries long legal and societal framework set up for private property ownership, but some people simply didn’t own land. You keep on arguing that - who owned it then ? > [@](#): > > Your analogy with Tibetans is also flawed. It would have to entail Tibetans moving to Texas, and then _the sovereign state of the United States dissolving_, with no new sovereign to ultimately replace it. In any case, I wasn’t shooting for an _exact_ analogy - I was just asking the question : if that hypothetical happened, don’t you think the US would go up in arms, even though you’re big on the right of all people to self-determination ? But it doesn’t even have to be the US - if any ethnic group organized massive immigration into any country, with the explicit aim of eventually taking power and denying power to any other ethnic group (cause that’s, at heart, what Israel is, isn’t it ? They’ll never allow any group but Jews to ever be in position to take power - that’d go against the whole mission statement), don’t you think the people of that country, or those sharing their culture, are never going to take issue with that ? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/88 "2009-01-28T19:41:11Z")
~shrugs~ I’ve read it as “Kobol”, like, the Twelve Tribes of. Ah well. Brainfart. You’re also backpedaling on your claim of immigration as aggression. The Irish didn’t intend to create their own state, but then again, that wasn’t part of your original formation. Nor, It should be noted, did the Jews who immigrated under the Ottomans think they’d overthrow the Ottomans and even during the Mandate, the British had already explicitly authorized Jewish immigration for the purpose of creating a Jewish home. And yes, the Irish faced discrimination but the US as a sovereign state didn’t respond as if their very presence here was an act of aggression. I’ve also discussed property rights at length. The Ottoman empire, as the sovereign state, owned Miri and waste land. It’s really not all that much different than ‘government property’ in the United States, except there was a fuck lot more of of it under the Ottomans. And no, Israel isn’t at heart about taking power and denying power to other people. The only thing that non-Jews are denied the power to do is vote away Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/89 "2009-01-28T19:56:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > First, that immigration in the last 50 years has a higher cultural/political impact as last few centuries migrations. There’s nobody alive who saw the last centuries of Ottoman Empire, but there still are quite a few people who were there in '48. … Okaaaaay so people don’t live for multiple centuries often. But… yeaaah, before 1948, who was there? Muslimland? Or the Ottoman Empire? And… what does that have to do with anything? > [@Kobal2](#): > > But more that the Palestinian man\_in\_the\_street idea that the Israeli invaded their lands, while not valid in the grander scheme of things, is based on a kernel of facts, not thin air, and could certainly convince someone inclined to believe the Israeli aggressive/nefarious based on the checkpoints and so on. Just because people believe things doesn’t make it true. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Understand, this is not _my_ viewpoint, I’m just trying to figure out what \*they \*see, believe and understand, understand their vision of history, their historical narrative, the data available to them and so on - and trying to play their Devil’s advocate in the process > That is precisely my point. See above. So, you’re saying that the US is a Christian Nation? Or that the belief by some christians that it is, counts as reality? What? > [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, aren’t the Russians as subtle and proportionate in putting down the insurrection as…something that’s as far as subtle and proportionate as can possibly be conceived ? I must admit, I have the barest of knowledge of that situation. … noooooooooo. > [@Kobal2](#): > > The sad thing is, it’s true. Maybe the US should have invaded both of them to give them a unifying common ennemy. Dammit, where’s Bush when you need him ? 😛 Meh. Deal with things as they are now, understand the past as context to the future, but don’t depend on it as a crutch. Like your argument is using. Who cares who owned the land before the British? The Brits took it, right of conquest, gave it to the Jews, suck it down. If you go back before the Brits, neither the local arab tribes _nor_ the local jewish people owned it. And you can’t make an argument that they did. Not one that isn’t full of lies and half-truths. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/90 "2009-01-28T20:39:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In any case, I wasn’t shooting for an _exact_ analogy - I was just asking the question : if that hypothetical happened, don’t you think the US would go up in arms, even though you’re big on the right of all people to self-determination ? Since the U.S. controls it’s territory it has the right to exclude immigrants if it wants to. So the situation is unlike one where the owner of the region allows large group of people to immigrate there. > [@](#): > > But it doesn’t even have to be the US - if any ethnic group organized massive immigration into any country, with the explicit aim of eventually taking power and denying power to any other ethnic group (cause that’s, at heart, what Israel is, isn’t it ? They’ll never allow any group but Jews to ever be in position to take power - that’d go against the whole mission statement), don’t you think the people of that country, or those sharing their culture, are never going to take issue with that ? Don’t forget that the Palestinians now essentially want the same thing. They want to immigrate into Israel, take over power, and deny power to the other ethnic group (maybe even to kill the ethnic group.) If it was not ok for the Jews to do this, why is ok for the Palestinians to want this now? Even if the Jews were wrong before, it still makes no sense for them to give up their land to people who want to kill all of them. The Jews did not move in with the intention of killing all the Muslims in the region. Also, the Palestinians now have the same shitty land that they had before 1945. It’s not like the Jews took over more profitable territory from them. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/91 "2009-01-28T20:52:12Z")
When I say ‘the jews’, I mean as a whole. Many individual arabs and jews owned property. And most of the jews were working together. But, you know, huge goverment owned tracts of land. Like the middle ages, the baron owned the land, people just lived on it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/92 "2009-01-28T23:31:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The only thing that non-Jews are denied the power to do is vote away Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. This smacks of racism, or at the very least, Islamophobia. This was precisely the justification whites used to prevent blacks and other minorities from voting. You can’t, on one hand, claim Israel is a democracy and on the other necessitate laws that would suppress the votes of the minority. It is my opinion that Israel is not a democracy, but, instead, is a Jewish democracy; which, of course, makes it no different than China. To be frank, as a black man, I cannot help but watch the events unfold in the Middle East with tepid shock and mild curiousity. It seems to me that white people will, and have, come up with beautifully-written rhetoric on why its proper and right to strip those who are darker or different than themselves of the right to participate and coexist in government. What makes Israeli policies disappointing is that the Jewish diaspora in America played an instrumental role in the Underground Railroad and in the Civil Rights Movement. The Jews in America seem to have realized a basic truism: Love one another. Israel, on the other hand, is about 300 years behind the bar. If Israel doesn’t stop it, they’ll have the equilavent of the March on Washington on their heels and a frantic, future generation that has to come up with ridiculous excuses why their ancestors behaved so barbarically. I should send Mr. Olmert a copy of Disney’s _Pocahontas_. I doubt it’ll convey much about the value of human life, regardless of creed or color, but at least the Prime Minister can learn to drop the blood-stained palette and begin painting with the colors of the wind. \ - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/93 "2009-01-28T23:51:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This smacks of racism, or at the very least, Islamophobia. This was precisely the justification whites used to prevent blacks and other minorities from voting. You can’t, on one hand, claim Israel is a democracy and on the other necessitate laws that would suppress the votes of the minority. It is my opinion that Israel is not a democracy, but, instead, is a Jewish democracy; which, of course, makes it no different than China. > > To be frank, as a black man, I cannot help but watch the events unfold in the Middle East with tepid shock and mild curiousity. It seems to me that white people will, and have, come up with beautifully-written rhetoric on why its proper and right to strip those who are darker or different than themselves of the right to participate and coexist in government. The situation is not analogous to race relations in the US. Israel is not protecting itself from a race, but from an ideology. It believes that if the Jews become a minority that they will be mistreated, and at worst slaughtered. The analogy is not whether white and black people can get along, but whether black people can get along with the KKK. The answer will always unequivocally be no, because to be a member of the KKK means you hate black people. Now you are asking Israel to open it’s doors to be taken over by radical Islam. To territories governed by authorities that have repeatedly expressed their desire to destroy Israel. This is just not a viable option. Whites said the same thing about blacks when they were slaves, I know, but they were wrong. Do you really believe that hostility toward the Jews will end if the Palestinians take over the government of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/94 "2009-01-29T00:17:29Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It seems to me that white people will, and have, come up with beautifully-written rhetoric on why its proper and right to strip those who are darker or different than themselves of the right to participate and coexist in government. I am guessingh that you are claiming that Jews are “wte” andArabs are “drker.” You should spend a lot more time looking at actual pictuires of the participants of this tragedy: it is pretty hard to distinguish between Arab or Jew or Israeli or Palestinian based only on sking shade–which tends to run through a lot of different shades with each side equally represented on the palette. Your argument is odd, although I suppoose it might be made of straw. You also appear to have misinterpreted **FinnAgain** ’s other comment. The U.S. has the same rule that the citizens and states cannot de-establish the country. I am not sure who is being subjected to discrimination by that law, here, but it would not be racist either here or in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/95 "2009-01-29T02:27:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The fact is that the occupation conforms to the standards set down in the Fourth Geneva Convention. This claim is disputed. For example, Israel argues that the Convention’s standards do not require it to prevent Israeli Jews from settling in the Palestinian territories, while other parties, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, disagree. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/96 "2009-01-29T03:16:28Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > When I say ‘the jews’, I mean as a whole. Many individual arabs and jews owned property. And most of the jews were working together. But, you know, huge goverment owned tracts of land. Like the middle ages, the baron owned the land, people just lived on it. I found this [Zionist site](http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Land_question_in_Palestine.htm) several months ago regarding who owned what land at the end of the Ottoman Empire, and its all very complicated. > [@](#): > > The Ottoman land ownership laws and the status of land ownership in Palestine are crucially important in the history of Zionism, because of Zionist attempts to purchase land, Arab and British attempts to block them, and subsequent claims by Arabs that they had “owned” most of the land in what is now the State of Israel. It is also important in considering the claims of Palestinian refugees for restitution. Ottoman law divided land into several categories: > > Mulk - Privately owned land in the Western sense. Only a tiny portion of the land was owned in this way. This was the only actual non-government private land in Palestine to which people had inalienable ownership rights. > > Miri: Land owned by the government (originally the Ottoman crown) and suitable for agricultural use. Individuals could purchase a deed to cultivate this land and pay a tithe to the government. Ownership could be transferred only with the approval of the state. Miri rights could be transferred to heirs, and the land could be sub-let to tenants. If the owner died without an heir or the land was not cultivated for three years, the land would revert to the state. > > Mahlul - Uncultivated Miri lands that would revert to the state, in theory after three years. > > Waqf: Land belonging to the Muslim religious endowment, which supposedly could not be alienated or sold. Some categories of this type of land were in fact purchased by Zionists at one time. > > Matruka - Land left for public use such as highways, as well as communal lands and pastures. These lands belonged to the state, and not to communities or individuals. It is not clear that this category actually existed in Palestine ( Stein, Land Question, p. 14). It is however, listed in the Hope-Simpson report. > > Mawat - (or Mewat) So-called “dead”, unreclaimed land. It constituted about 50 to 60% of the land in Palestine. It belonged to the government. Private individuals could purchase and register this land as their own for its unreclaimed value, but it was just as easy to simply cultivate it.( Stein, Land Question, p. 13). If the land had been cultivated with permission, it would be registered, at least under the Mandate, free of charge. Communities and individuals often expanded their land land holdings “informally” by cultivating or using such land. According to the Hope-Simpson Report Mewat land was probably of considerable extent. It was defined as any land that was more than a mile and a half from a village, and was not owned by anyone. However, no systematic survey was ever done, so it was impossible to determine the precise extent of Mewat land. > > In addition to the above official categories, the following two concepts were in in use in Palestine: > > Musha’ - Musha’ land was Miri or Mulk land that was cultivated in common by numerous owners in common. Often this was unregistered land, or land to which Miri rights had been acquired by squatting and eventual registration. About 5 million dunams of land in Palestine were Musha’ land in Palestine in 1933.( Stein, Land Question, p. 14). Musha land was gradually sold out to absentee owners who lived in town, and used tenants or hired labor to work their lands. Musha and subtenanted Miri land probably constituted the bulk of agricultural land ownership of cultivated land by Arabs. > > jiftlik or Mudawara - Mudawara lands were private lands that had been bequeathed to the Sultan and were therefore government property. The largest such parcel was the Beisan area land with consisted of 302,000 dunams ( Stein, Land Question, p. 62) (Originally this land was apparently about 394,000 dunams - (Stein, Land Question, pages 107-108)). According to the Hope-Simpson Report (table on p 58) the second largest Jiftlik area was apparently in Rafa and comprised 90,000 dunams. Along with other such lands it was leased to Arabs who had been there “for many years” or so they claimed. The third largest Jiftlik area was in the Jericho area and covered about 75,000 dunams. ( Stein, Land Question, p. 14). The government could lease these lands to tenants, in such a way that they were not liable to eviction as they were on Miri or Mulk land, but after 1933, it was no longer possible to acquire such tenancy. Instead, the British government had begun to sell these lands ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/97 "2009-01-29T03:17:55Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > ~shrugs~ > I’ve read it as “Kobol”, like, the Twelve Tribes of. Ah well. Brainfart. Fair enough. It puzzled me, is all - I wondered whether it was a simple mistake, or a deliberate joke WRT the antiquated code language. > [@](#): > > You’re also backpedaling on your claim of immigration as aggression. The Irish didn’t intend to create their own state, but then again, that wasn’t part of your original formation. That’s true, I rechecked my original statement and you’re right that it isn’t there - but I assure you that’s what was on my mind when I was talking of “massive, organized immigration”. You can accuse me of moving the goalposts if you will, but that was not my intention - it was a communication problem and failure on my part to properly enunciate my thought process, not dishonesty. > [@](#): > > Nor, It should be noted, did the Jews who immigrated under the Ottomans think they’d overthrow the Ottomans and even during the Mandate, the British had already explicitly authorized Jewish immigration for the purpose of creating a Jewish home. And yes, the Irish faced discrimination but the US as a sovereign state didn’t respond as if their very presence here was an act of aggression. Neither did the Palestinians, since they’re not a sovereign state, nor did Palestinian/Israeli resentment & violence start when Hamas seized power in Gaza. > [@](#): > > And no, Israel isn’t at heart about taking power and denying power to other people. The only thing that non-Jews are denied the power to do is vote away Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. Which…is denying power to other people. Right now, the population levels are about matched (with a slight Jewish advantage) - which in and of itself means the country isn’t a Jewish state per se. And when there are more people inside the country who don’t want a Jewish state than people who do, which is bound to happen soonish considering the big discrepancy in natality rates, the option still won’t be on the table. If the people of a country don’t have the right to modify or abbrogate the rules under which they are governed, _whatever the rules are_, that’s not a democratic or free country. And for that matter, we tend to frown on non-separated church & state in general, why make an exception here ? [QUOTE=Lakai] Since the U.S. controls it’s territory it has the right to exclude immigrants if it wants to. So the situation is unlike one where the owner of the region allows large group of people to immigrate there. [/QUOTE] Good point. But then, that’s part of the problem, isn’t it ? The idea that a third party (the Brits, in essence more alien to the region that either group) took over at the tip of a sword and forced the immigration down their collective throats against their wishes ? > [@](#): > > Don’t forget that the Palestinians now essentially want the same thing. They want to immigrate into Israel, take over power, and deny power to the other ethnic group (maybe even to kill the ethnic group.) If it was not ok for the Jews to do this, why is ok for the Palestinians to want this now? Not saying it is for \*either \*group. But we can’t accept it from one side and saying the other is abhorrent for it, can we ? [QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Just because people believe things doesn’t make it true. [/QUOTE] Nope, but objective truth has never had much of an impact on realpolitik, cultural identity and so on. It’s obviously better if the people’s (or each individual’s) truthiness is as close as possible to The Truth, but when it comes down to it, it’s their individual truthiness that motivates their actions, not The Truth (which may or may not exist in the first place, but that’s a whole other kettle of philosofish). > [@](#): > > The Brits took it, right of conquest, gave it to the Jews, suck it down. So we condone and endorse right of conquest now ? Neverminding the obvious Wehrmacht thing (it’s too early for Godwin) : Iraq belongs to the US, they took it, if they wanna keep it, suck it down ? For that matter, Kuweit was rightfully Saddam’s, he took it, suck it down ? Colonialism was just fine and dandy ? Might makes right ? Pretty sure we’re trying to move past that. [QUOTE=Lakai] The analogy is not whether white and black people can get along, but whether black people can get along with the KKK. The answer will always unequivocally be no, because to be a member of the KKK means you hate black people. [/QUOTE] Which is why we don’t give power to either group unilateraly - yet don’t deny the KKK right to vote. And rightfully sanction KKK actions as individual criminal ones rather than branding the whole of the whites criminals based on the actions of the KKK, or allowing the black community to attack the KKK in retaliation. And FWIW, I don’t think you can equate Islam or Palestinians with the KKK either. The armed core of Hamas ? Sure. But every Palestinian isn’t a Hamas operative or a rabid Muslim fundie. Which (miracle !) stirs us back towards the OP 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/98 "2009-01-29T05:11:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not saying it is for \*either \*group. But we can’t accept it from one side and saying the other is abhorrent for it, can we ? The thing is that the Jews did not move in with the intention to steal the land. Once violence broke out they had to separate themselves from the Muslims. Don’t forget that at that time these people were running away from persecution in Europe. It’s not like they could have left Israel and went some place more safe. They had no where else to go. The situation is a little different from what the Palestinians are doing now. > [@](#): > > Which is why we don’t give power to either group unilateraly - yet don’t deny the KKK right to vote. And rightfully sanction KKK actions as individual criminal ones rather than branding the whole of the whites criminals based on the actions of the KKK, or allowing the black community to attack the KKK in retaliation. > > And FWIW, I don’t think you can equate Islam or Palestinians with the KKK either. The armed core of Hamas ? Sure. But every Palestinian isn’t a Hamas operative or a rabid Muslim fundie. Which (miracle !) stirs us back towards the OP 😛 I know we want to believe that democracy will always lead to good things, but history tells us it doesn’t (e.g. the Nazis.) We don’t deny the KKK the right to vote because we know they can’t hurt us. But what if you lived in a county where the KKK made up the majority of the population and you were in the minority black population. Lets say that up until this point the KKK could not vote. Would you let them vote? My guess is no because you know the results will get you killed. I’m not equating all of Palestine with the KKK. However, the Palestinians have not been very good at choosing or controlling their leaders. Why should I expect things to be different if the Jews allow them to vote? The sad reality is that radical fundamentalist have a death grip on that region. We can easily predict that the results won’t be good if Israel allows them to vote. What I have realized is that as a die hard liberal, I have been arguing against quite a few liberal ideals in this thread. Liberty does have it’s limits. Sometimes you just have to accept that certain people won’t act responsibly. Particularly when they announce such intentions for the whole world to hear. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/99 "2009-01-29T05:13:17Z")
**FinnAgain** I don’t really have anything to add, but there are very few people with whom I agree so completely on this issue with. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/100 "2009-01-29T06:00:40Z")
Right of conquest is how things worked up till WWII. Go figure. We’ve moved away from it, but… yeah, end of WWII, Brits owned it. As far as, “Oh, subjectively, realpolitik”? Bullshit. You’re telling me that you live in a faith-based reality? Like George W. Bush? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192.md?page=6)