# How much blame do the citizens of Gaza deserve? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192 "2009-01-27T06:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/161 "2009-01-31T00:21:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not that it really matters anyway, when all is said and done. They don’t have the numbers or means to concretize their vision, and never will, even if all the neighbouring Arab states shared it and helped them (which isn’t the case). No, what matters is what path they are desiring to follow. If they are true to their past words and actions then the path they will consistently choose is not one that leads to a long term peace. The fact they have not the capacity to carry out genocidal ambitions (or regional ethnocide even) matters not to the fact that those who have that as their goal are unlikely peace partners. [But](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gBxZpc4Gmze7u0MfbQXJDaZ0iAhQD960T45G0), and as I linked to in another thread, maybe, just maybe, some pragmatism will emerge even in Hamas. Maybe they will see their way to choosing another path. > [@](#): > > Hamas is trying hard to flex its muscles in the aftermath of Israel’s punishing onslaught in the Gaza Strip, doling out cash, vowing revenge and declaring victory over Zionist aggression. But AP interviews with Hamad and two other Hamas leaders in the war-ravaged territory they rule suggest some of that might be more bluster than reality — and the group may be ready for some serious deal making … The militants appear to be in the throes of an internal power struggle between hard-liners and pragmatists. Which group comes out on top will likely depend on who is able to garner the most benefits in postwar Gaza. > > With hawks urging more violence, the window of opportunity to boost the voices of relative moderation is likely to be short. … Hamas’ pragmatists may have emerged from Israel’s offensive slightly stronger, perhaps because of a perception among some Gazans that the organization’s hawks overplayed their hand by provoking the wrath of Israel. … rebuilding Gaza after Israel’s onslaught is going to require open borders and a large inflow of money and material — things that Iran, whose aid to Hamas is strictly surreptitious because of Israeli restrictions, cannot provide. > > Hamas says it wants international recognition as much as an end to the blockade of Gaza — but it won’t get either for free. For Hamas, the price may include allowing Fatah back into Gaza 20 months after it violently ousted them, along with halting its rocket fire and weapons smuggling. … the three Hamas leaders interviewed said they would accept statehood in just the West Bank and Gaza and would give up their “resistance” against Israel if that were achieved. > > “We accept a state in the '67 borders,” said Hamad. “We are not talking about the destruction of Israel.” … Mind you even I, the eternal optimist in all matters of the ME, am not holding my breath. But the window exists. It may be open only a crack, but it is open. The big questions are if the world’s communities will provide the incentives that allow for the pragmatists to win out and that get Israel to make some immediate positive moves rather than [Netanyanhu’s](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060126.html) proposed idiocy. > [@](#): > > “I will not keep Olmert’s commitments to withdraw and I won’t evacuate settlements. Those understandings are invalid and unimportant” The window may be cracked open only for a short time. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/162 "2009-01-31T00:33:03Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [The Jerusalem Post - All News from the Middle East, Israel, and the Jewish World](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178020746583&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Sheik Ahmad Bahr, Hamas Spokesperson > > “Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet, defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them.” This is a on the right track. Although it is a prayer, not the simple declarative sentence sought. While it does not express the intentions of Hamas, the first problem is reliability. The source is the notorious MEMRI, which we are asked to rely on for both the transcription and then the translation. Indeed observe [MEMRI Criticism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Criticism): > [@](#): > > MEMRI’s work has been attacked on three grounds: that their work is biased; that they choose articles to translate selectively so as to give an unrepresentative view of the media they are reporting on; and that their translations are sometimes inaccurate. > [@](#): > > Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian newspaper in the United Kingdom, has been one of the most outspoken critics of MEMRI, writing: “My problem with Memri is that it poses as a research institute when it’s basically a propaganda operation,”[5] and that “the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel.”[4] Whitaker has also complained that "MEMRI’s website does not mention you [Carmon] or your work for Israeli intelligence. Nor does it mention MEMRI’s co-founder, Meyrav Wurmser, and her extreme brand of Zionism… Given your political background, it’s legitimate to ask whether MEMRI is a trustworthy vehicle. > [@](#): > > He believes that “it’s a reliable assumption that anything MEMRI translates from the Middle East is going to be unreliable.” More at source. The other reliability problem is Sheik Ahmad Bahr. Termed a ‘Hamas spokesperson’ and on the net as "acting speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council’, there is no reference to him independent of this passage. No independent source lists him in any leadership position, eg. [Hamas Leaders](http://www.cfr.org/publication/9811/hamas_leaders.html). In other words 3 problems: Reliability: - MEMRI and transcription & translation issues. - Sheik Ahmad Bahr does not have the authority to represent Hamas Content: - The passage is a prayer and request, not a statement concerning intent. Optimally we would see a written document, reliably authorised by Hamas. Simple declarative sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/163 "2009-01-31T00:35:13Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Oh, I should point out that I found that by googling hamas kill all the jews. It’s not like I was trying hard. … Which infers that you hadn’t a source in mind for the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/164 "2009-01-31T00:36:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …You can do your own research if you like, but [this](http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_charter.htm) gives excerpts from the Hamas Charter:… > -XT :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/165 "2009-01-31T00:38:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > While I’m loathe to support \*\*Sev \*\*in this, … That’s ok, you won’t slow me too much. (Large Mocha this morn.) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/166 "2009-01-31T00:44:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Guys, you don’t understand **Sev**. > > His claim isn’t that Hamas doesn’t want to kill or exile all the Jews in Israel. He’ll clearly agree that they do. His claim, such as it is, is that Hamas and their ilk have no designs toward Jews living \*outside \*of Israel, and therefore, according to his logic, have nothing against Jews _in general_. Furthermore, he believes that killing or exiling all the Israeli Jews would not count as genocide (unlike killing or exiling all the Palestinians, for some reason), because such an action would leave Jews alive elsewhere in the world. That’ because to him, we Israelis are not a nation _per se_, but merely a colony of International Jewry. > > Am I right, \*\*Sev \*\*old buddy? Afraid not, especially the ‘kill all’ parts. I apologise for not correcting you earlier when you first stated this interpretation. I understand Hamas to be interested in creating an Islamic [Waqf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqf) in the region, it’s a kind of polity which is observant of Islam. So long as the area is governed under that principle, it it all good. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/167 "2009-01-31T00:45:25Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/168 "2009-01-31T00:50:14Z")
**Kobal2** I mostly agree with. What is unstated, is the damage **Kobal2’s** analysis of the evidence does to Israeli credibility. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/169 "2009-01-31T00:50:15Z")
Kim: It’d be an easy enough claim to falsify. Show me a method that should have been used but was not. They’ve used informants and patrols, and checkpoints and barricades and security guards all over the place. We’ve got military testimony that the barrier is a military necessity, and facts showing that it’s virtually eliminated the threat of suicide bombings in many points. We’ve got members of terrorist organizations, saying of their own free will, that the barrier has made it extremely difficult if not impossible to attack Israelis. If there is a method that Israel could have used during that time to cut down suicide bombings by the same degree as the barrier has done, then what was it? What other possible methods would have worked as well as the barrier has worked? If there was some other method which you claim could have been used, show it. You offered the ICJ, and for all practical purposes they didn’t even consider the question of military necessity. Now you’re denying that history proves out the claim that all viable methods have been tried and this is a military necessity. And as you’ve admitted,\* you don’t even know what methods were tried.\* If you don’t even know the history, or the current events, then you can’t argue against historical claims or contemporary analysis on any type of informed basis. If you want to debate my analysis of the information, provide an example of a method I overlooked. Otherwise, you’re disagreeing without even knowing the facts you’re disagreeing about. And yes, I have the blasphemous certainty that comes from having looked at the evidence and reasoned it to a conclusion. I don’t care if you find it dogmatic or phlegmatic. Argue the facts if you believe I am wrong in my analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/170 "2009-01-31T01:01:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … But the window exists. It may be open only a crack, but it is open. The big questions are if the world’s communities will provide the incentives that allow for the pragmatists to win out and that get Israel to make some immediate positive moves rather than [Netanyanhu’s](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060126.html) proposed idiocy.The window may be cracked open only for a short time. Good analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/171 "2009-01-31T01:12:28Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > The other reliability problem is Sheik Ahmad Bahr. Termed a ‘Hamas spokesperson’ and on the net as "acting speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council’, there is no reference to him independent of this passage. No independent source lists him in any leadership position, eg. [Hamas Leaders](http://www.cfr.org/publication/9811/hamas_leaders.html). [http://www.webgaza.net/gaza\_strip/gaza/people\_profiles/Bahr\_Ahmad.htm](http://www.webgaza.net/gaza_strip/gaza/people_profiles/Bahr_Ahmad.htm) > [@](#): > > First Deputy to the President of The Palestinian Legislative Council (Palestine) > Jan 2006 Member of The Palestinian Legislative Council (Reformation and Change List) (Palestine) > Jan 2006 Elected Deputy for Gaza (Palestine) The Reformation and Change List was the list on which Hamas ran in the Palestinian elections. From Ahmad Moussali’s 1998 “Islamic Fundamentalism: Myths and Realities” > [@](#): > > Ahmad Bahr is an 'alim educated in the Sudan. A former imam at the Palestine Mosque in central Gaza, he is currently associate professor at the Islamic University in Gaza. Moreover, he is a prominent figure within Hizb al-Khalas al-Watani al-Islami. and, from an alert by the Palestinian Human Rights Monitor: [http://www.phrmg.org/monitor1999/jan99-political.htm](http://www.phrmg.org/monitor1999/jan99-political.htm) > [@](#): > > Among those arrested in this series arrests were: Khalas member Sheikh Ahmad Bahr… I’m sure I don’t need to tell you about the relationship between Khalas and Hamas. But, just for fun, here’s an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab where he points out: > **[CloudGuard.ir | Website Protection](https://www.alqassam.ps/english/?action=sfile&fid=1166)** > [@](#): > > We think of Khalas as a political party that is working inside the Palestinian community within the framework of the Palestinian Authority.Khalas presents an Islamic viewpoint on internal political issues, but it does not deal with issues directly pertaining to the Israeli occupation. Hamas, in contrast, has a different goal to resist the occupation – although it also is concerned about the rebuilding of Palestinian society. So Hamas’s agenda is more encompassing than that of Khalas. . . > > Q: So the reason that somebody would be working in Khalas, as opposed to Hamas, is essentially because it does a somewhat different thing, not because they believe something different? > > A: Yes. The roles of each are different, that’s all. From an article by Agence France Presse, November 29, 2006, entitled “Livni Shuns Qatar Conference, but Israel is There”, about the international conference on democracy in Doha, Qata, and the failure of Tzipi Livni, at the time Israel’s foreign minister, to show up: > [@](#): > > Israeli foreign ministry spokesperson Amira Oron said in Doha that while Israel had downgraded is representation because of Hamas, “the enemy of Israel and democracy”, the country still attached great importance to the gathering and was participating with a team headed by Yaacov Hadas, deputy director general of the ministry’s Middle East department. > > As it turned out, Hamas sent only one delegate – Ahmad Bahr, deputy speaker of the Palestinian legislative council. From The Media Line’s Jan 19, 2009 article “As Fighting Ends, P.A. Leadership Crisis takes Over” > [@](#): > > Hamas threatened to declare ‘Abbas’s chairmanship illegitimate after January 9, and possibly declare the speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), ‘Aziz A-Dweik, as the legitimate chairman. > > But Dweik is currently in an Israeli jail, and is not expected to be released before August 2009. > > The next in line is A-Dweik’s deputy, Ahmad Bahr, who is also from Hamas. From the Jan 25, 2009 edition of the Kuwait Times, political analyst Dr. Ayad Al-Manna’s views on the political implications of the Arab Economic Summit and the Gaza fighting. [http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read\_news.php?newsid=MTA2MjQyOTMxMQ==](http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MTA2MjQyOTMxMQ==) > [@](#): > > Hamas has found support in the Muslim Brotherhood faction and the Salafi movement. They want the power to be transferred to the executive president, but he is in an Israeli prison right now. Who will replace him though? Someone called Ahmad Bahr. However, I didn’t see him at the summit. So, I think it’s safe to say that Bahr is a Hamas spokesman. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/172 "2009-01-31T03:30:31Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Which infers that you hadn’t a source in mind for the claim. Nope, I was just looking for things about killing all the jews. I found a lot of them, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/173 "2009-01-31T03:44:15Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Which infers that you hadn’t a source in mind for the claim. No, it is just a result of you ignoring the previous sources he did have in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/174 "2009-01-31T03:58:35Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > So when Hamas blows up a school bus full of children, or Al Qaeda flies a plane into a building, your only criticism (if you have any) is that their action is strategically unsound? You don’t have any moral criticism per se? **I** am an individual, not a State. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/175 "2009-01-31T05:28:31Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This is a on the right track. Although it is a prayer, not the simple declarative sentence sought. While it does not express the intentions of Hamas, the first problem is reliability… You can find some more statements from [here](http://pmw.org.il/bulletins_apr2007.htm#b120407). More from our good friend Bahar: > [@](#): > > ``` > Dr. Ahmad Bahar (acting Speaker, Palestinian Legislative Council): > “This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation… Be certain that America is on its way to disappear, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine… Make us victorious over the infidel people… Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies… Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don’t leave even one.” > [PA TV, April 20, 2007] > > ``` Here are others: > [@](#): > > “The representative of the Legislative Council, Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, of the ‘Change and Reform’ faction [Hamas], emphasized the option of Jihad and resistance to banish the thieves of the occupation, who longed to drink the blood of our massacred people… because the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: ‘I kill, therefore I am’… Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah’s will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs].” > [Al-Risalah, Hamas, April 12, 2007] > [@](#): > > The Hamas spokesman, Dr. Ismail Radwan, PA TV, March 30, 2007 - > > The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: “Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!” > > We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle. It will not be liberated through negotiations, but through the rifle, since this occupation knows no language but the language of force… O Allah, strengthen Islam and Muslims, and bring victory to your Jihad-fighting worshipers, in Palestine and everywhere… Allah take the oppressor Jews and Americans and their supporters! These seem to be the ones most often cited. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/176 "2009-01-31T21:10:56Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Good analysis. Okay. Now I have to rethink it. 🙂 Meanwhile … [yeah,](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060313.html) Hamas is not quite so monolithic. > [@](#): > > Palestinian sources told the Egyptian daily newspaper Al Ahram that the Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip sought to extend the six-month cease-fire that preceded Israel’s military offensive last month and are furious with Hamas’ Damascus-based political bureau chief Khaled Meshal’s decision to end the truce And forces are [at work](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060305.html) to help the pragmatists take the helm. > [@](#): > > “I do think it is important that we find a way of bringing Hamas into this process, but it can only be done if Hamas are prepared to do it on the right terms,” Blair said in an interview with the Times of London newspaper, published on its Web site. > > Blair is the Middle East envoy for the quartet of Middle East peace negotiators … there can be no talks, official or unofficial, with Hamas until they renounce violence and recognize Israel. However, he said that his “basic predisposition is that in a situation like this you talk to everybody.” Now then he also says > [@](#): > > the strategy of “pushing Gaza aside” and trying to create a Palestinian state on the West Bank “was never going to work and will never work.” and here he is wrong. If the pragmatists do not emerge on top then that poor option is the only one remaining. If only as a means to a better solution. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/177 "2009-02-01T05:57:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > **I** am an individual, not a State. Hamas isn’t an individual; it is a political organization engaged in an asymmetrical conflict. You claim morality doesn’t apply in wars. I am merely applying your reasoning. If morality doesn’t apply to what Israel is doing in said conflict, it doesn’t apply to Hamas either, no? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/178 "2009-02-01T06:15:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Would the Chinese government be justified in attacking the citizens of Taiwan, on the grounds that the Taiwanese citizens are complicit in a government that “wants the death” of China? Or vice versa? If the Taiwanese people were in the habit of marching en mass in the streets shouting for the deaths of all mainland Chinese, and they constantly gave speeches where they said they wouldn’t rest until China was wiped off the face of the map, and they had a habit of carrying out terrorist acts against Chinese civilians, and they were repeatedly caught smuggling large scale weapons, and then they started launching rockets at the nearest towns in China, killing Chinese civilians, do you know what I think the Chinese would do? I think they would flatten them. In fact, I think that would be the response of many countries if they were faced with that level of hostility and threat on a constant basis. Many of the same countries that are now clucking about Israel’s ‘disproportionate’ response. > [@](#): > > So, whatever you conclude about the rights, wrongs, or culpability of the citizens of Gaza, I don’t think you can reasonably argue that the mere fact of having voted for Hamas would be sufficient to justify attacking them. I agree that the population is not morally culpable. Certainly not the ones who didn’t vote for Hamas, and not others who voted for Hamas for reasons other than their rhetoric towards Israel. But that’s not the issue. The issue is whether Israel has the right to strike legitimate military targets in Gaza, even if it co-located in a civilian area. International law says absolutely yes. Disproportionality is not a reasonable standard of objection. The casualties in WWII were extremely disproportionate between the Americans and the Japanese, or the Americans and the Germans. The casualties were extremely disproportionate in both Gulf wars. The most moral is not the side with the most casualties. Unfortunately, it’s governments that take people to war, and also unfortunately, you can’t surgically remove the government from the people. Especially if the government allows its armed wing to use the population as cover. Civilian deaths that occur in such a situation are mainly the responsibility of the government that put them in harm’s way to act as human shields. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/179 "2009-02-02T21:05:18Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Hamas isn’t an individual; it is a political organization engaged in an asymmetrical conflict. You claim morality doesn’t apply in wars. I am merely applying your reasoning. If morality doesn’t apply to what Israel is doing in said conflict, it doesn’t apply to Hamas either, no? No of course morality does not apply to Hamas, I’ve already said this. I don’t believe it is immoral to kill enemy civilians in war. Taking a move like that has to be looked at strategically, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192/180 "2009-02-02T23:11:05Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > If the Taiwanese people were in the habit of marching en mass in the streets shouting for the deaths of all mainland Chinese, and they constantly gave speeches where they said they wouldn’t rest until China was wiped off the face of the map, and they had a habit of carrying out terrorist acts against Chinese civilians, and they were repeatedly caught smuggling large scale weapons, and then they started launching rockets at the nearest towns in China, killing Chinese civilians, do you know what I think the Chinese would do? > > I think they would flatten them. Who are “them” in your scenario? All Taiwanese? Taiwanese government and military officials? Taiwanese terrorists? Taiwanese who participate in anti-Chinese marches? This careless lumping together of different groups of people into one vaguely defined enemy “them” is part of what I was objecting to in the post that you responded to. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > I agree that the population is not morally culpable. Certainly not the ones who didn’t vote for Hamas, and not others who voted for Hamas for reasons other than their rhetoric towards Israel. > > But that’s not the issue. The issue is whether Israel has the right to strike legitimate military targets in Gaza Um, no. The issue that this thread is about is whether the citizens of Gaza as a group are deserving of blame for the attacks on Gaza. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-do-the-citizens-of-gaza-deserve/483192.md?page=8)