# How much blame does Europe deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438 "2002-05-05T22:19:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/41 "2002-05-07T15:50:02Z")
> [@](#): > > How come such cynicism and distrust on one side and complete support on the other ? I think you’ve hit it right on the head there yojimbo. december isn’t trying to give a reasoned argument, he is making a general point about anti-semitism that may, or may not, exist. Unfortunately, in MHO at least, the argument is weakened by a refusal to accept that there are two sides (at least!) to the story. Oh, and by the way, I’m Jewish and from Europe - before december launches an attack on my position…😕 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/42 "2002-05-07T16:00:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > I disagree with some of Collounsbury’s reasoning. Let’s look at C’s apparent logic: December, don’t try to play a ‘logic’ critique with me. You’re going to look stupid. > [@](#): > > Premise 1. The EU allegations are comparable to some other allegations about the US. > > Premise 2. The US is always blameless. > > Concluson: Therefore the EU is blameless. No, premise 2 is your strawman, _december_, and a piss-poor one at that. Rather, I was drawing attention to uses of the same logic in re some level of funding = responsbility, unbounded. I made to characterizations in re the truth or untruth of the US connexions, for example. Several, I would agree with. Try again, december, but don’t try the sad little straw men. > [@](#): > > The EU disagrees. They say the allegations are “serious.” Earth to december, you’ve spinning the phrase. > [@](#): > > Suppositions are interesting, but they do not take the place of facts. > Have you seen the report, **Collounbury**? Are you quoting a reliable source who has seen it? > > Cite, please. Oh this is rich. Relying on reporting by NYT and WP, as well as the FT. They all used similar characterizations, long on assertion, short on fact. A critical review here; > **[MIDEAST TURMOIL: INTELLIGENCE; Israelis Release More Documents Accusing...](https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/06/world/mideast-turmoil-intelligence-israelis-release-more-documents-accusing-arafat.html)** > > Israeli officials intensify campaign to discredit Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat, distributing three compilations of captured Palestinian documents to American officials in Jerusalem that Israelis contend are indisputable proof that he personally... [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37447-2002May5.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37447-2002May5.html) From the later: > [@](#): > > The report features original and translated documents, some of them seized from Palestinian computer disks, along with a great many assertions and allegations for which no documentary proof is offered. Throughout the report, Israel identifies individuals as “terrorists” without providing evidence to substantiate the characterization. But of course, december believes what confirms his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/43 "2002-05-07T16:19:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*And yet another piece of inspired misinterpretation from December. The actual quote: > > Let me try to summarise as simply as I can. The EU says that Israel’s claims “lack evidence”. You say this is “blustering”. I try to demonstrate why you can accuse some claims of lacking evidence without blustering. You miss the point…again. \*\*One of us is missing the point. EU says Israel’s claims “lack evidence.” Can this be true? The only ways the EU could know their statement to be true are: 1. The EU has reviewed all of Israel’s alleged evidence and found it worthless or insufficient. 2. Israel’s evidence can be presumed to be worthless on general reasoning. The article makes it clear that #1 hasn’t happened. **Gary’s** metaphor about Adolph Hitler is a way of arguing #2, but **Gary** seems to have backed away from that position. So, **Gary Kumquat** , how do you justify the EU saying that Israel’s claims lack evidence? How do they know this? A charitable interpretation: Maybe the EU statement meant only that the EU hadn’t seen evidence of their funds being used for terror. Maybe the statement that Israel “lacks evidence” is a bad translation. 😃 > [@](#): > > And I will ask the question for a third time:\*\*do you accept that the US has also given funding to the PA? \*\* > > Yes or No? I answered this question YES several posts back. I pointed out that the US now intends to do something about misuse of the money. That’s what I think Condoleezza Rice means by her [call for “transparancy.”](http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters05-05-144902.asp?reg=MIDEAST) OTOH, the EU has so far pretended that this problem doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/44 "2002-05-07T21:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Let’s compare the current wave of violence against Jews in Europe to the US church arson in the US. The treatment here was entirely different. The President and the media made a huge fuss. They made it clear that this would not be tolerated. Extra law enforcement people made special efforts, and they arrested almost all of the arsonists. > > As it turned out, the arson cases were not due to a racist attack. So, in summary, **the US made a far greater effort against a non-existant series of racist events than Europe is making against a real series of anti-Semitie events.** Ah yes, the typical december argument. So December, on what **substantive** basis–_ **excluding the bald faced assertions from Op-Ed pages** _ do you have for your “far greater effort” (on a Europe wide basis) assertion. It rather looks to me like yet another one of your non-rational-I-believe-it-becuase-it-affirms-my-cause-of-the-moment assertions which we have become ever so familiar with here. Rather recalls your ludicrous ‘argumentation’ in regards to welfare and terror. In re the EU issue, your retort really boggles the mind. Truly. The EU clearly has read the report, there is the evidence which Israel has presented. They clearly find it wanting, indeed as the NYT and WP articles make clear, there is quite a lot of connecting the dots on a basis of a certain policy goal that Sharon has. And we are to take this as the gospel truth. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/45 "2002-05-07T21:15:28Z")
**December** , one of the things I don’t understand about your OP is this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Since groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are making widespread accusations of war crimes, let’s see whether Europe has clean hands.** Would you care to explain what Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have to do with the EU providing funds to the PA? Why did you use those two organisations as a starting point to this debate? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/46 "2002-05-07T21:20:46Z")
because those two groups have suggested that Israel has a less than stellar record on HR issues currently., ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/47 "2002-05-07T22:28:03Z")
Thanks for the answer **wring**. Call me dumb, but I still don’t see what the activities of two independant human rights groups has to do with the EU providing funds to the PA. As I see it, the OP can be summed up as; “Because A and B are complaining about C, let’s look at what D are doing.” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/48 "2002-05-07T22:38:41Z")
well, again attempting to answer for the OP - it amounts to “don’t ask about/talk about/do anything about” wrongness committed by party A until after you’ve totally cleaned up wrongnesses committed by party B. It’s the global equivalent of “mooo-ooooooom, he hit be **first** ” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/49 "2002-05-07T23:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*So December, on what **substantive** basis–_ **excluding the bald faced assertions from Op-Ed pages** _ do you have for your “far greater effort” (on a Europe wide basis) assertion. I know about the enormous effort made here in the US, because it was front page news for weeks. My judgment of the European effort is less certain. From what I’ve read and from some discussions on another thread, it seemed that the European response was less dramatic. Feel free to present evidence to the contrary if you like. If you’d like to get deeply into this specific question, maybe we should start a new thread. > [@](#): > > It rather looks to me like yet another one of your > non-rational-I-believe-it-becuase-it-affirms-my-cause-of-the-moment assertions which we have become ever so familiar with here. Rather recalls your ludicrous ‘argumentation’ in regards to welfare and terror. I think we all knew that the “welfare causes terrorism” was a bit of a joke. At least **CalMeacham** got it; as he correctly said, “this is one of those insidious things – an assertion with some truth to it, but a premise that is grossly oversimplified.” In other words, it’s designed to make one think outside the box. > [@](#): > > In re the EU issue, your retort really boggles the mind. Truly. The EU clearly has read the report, there is the evidence which Israel has presented. They clearly find it wanting, indeed as the NYT and WP articles make clear, there is quite a lot of connecting the dots on a basis of a certain policy goal that Sharon has. **Collounsbury** , as I pointed out previously, there are tell-tale signals that an assertion is unsupported. The word _“clearly”_ another of those. You ask why I deduce that the EU hasn’t read the report. [ul][li]Sharon brought it to the US just this week to show to Bush. [_]The newspapers said nothing about the EU getting a copy. [_]In fact, the EU spokesman said they had asked for information, but not received it. Furthermore, if the EU had read the report, they’d say, “We have read the report, and we disagree, because…”[/ul][/li]Please explain why you think they “clearly” read it. BTW, on[another thread]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=d22bf15534c850bae9049c](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=d22bf15534c850bae9049c) f5047bf662&threadid=113099), you said there was “disinformation on all sides.” **Sam Stone** asked you, “Collounsbury, do you have some evidence of the disinformation that Israel has been spouting from Jenin?” You neither backed up your assertion nor withdraw it. > [@](#): > > **Kal** > Would you care to explain what Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have to do with the EU providing funds to the PA? As you say, it’s not relevant to the point of this debate. It was merely an explanation of my motivation. Accusations of massacres and war crimes were flying around; I thought the EU deserved a turn in the barrel. BTW an article I read pointed out that the US support for the Palestinians was paid via the UN agency. I had the impression from one of the cites that the EU may have been donating some money directly to the Palestinian Authority. Does anyone know the facts? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/50 "2002-05-07T23:12:37Z")
**december** you made the original assertion US/EU response, with US being decidedly stronger, and have been asked to provide substance to that. your response of > [@](#): > > From what I’ve read and from some discussions on another thread, it seemed that the European response was less dramatic. Feel free to present evidence to the contrary if you like. is non responsive. either bring **objective** evidence to support it, or retract your statement. your ‘thoughts’ about what you’ve ‘read somewhere’ are not substantive proof of anything. and we’re all pretty damned tired of explaining it to you. You make an assertion. you prove it. I make an assertion. I’m prepared to back it up with data, evidence, cites. so is everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/51 "2002-05-07T23:39:44Z")
Uh, december? The EU guys haven’t seen the evidence yet. So, they said that they lacked evidence that their donations were diverted to terrorism. The EU guys never claimed that there was no such evidence, or that they had seen the evidence and found it to be incorrect. They said they LACKED it. See? Very simple really. When Israel hands over the evidence, (or sends it to the US, who sends it to the EU) then they can evaluate the evidence. Until then, they have no evidence. Now, why did Collounsbury say that he wouldn’t be surprised to find that donated money had been diverted to terrorist schemes? Because donated money of this kind is stolen all the time! There is always a certain amount of graft. People are claimed to be on a payroll when they actually don’t exist. Supplies are purchased at a high price, and the seller gives a kickback to the guy writing the checks. Supposedly competitive bids actually go to somebody’s nephew. And on and on. When you hand out money people are going to try to get some of it into their pockets. And when you consider all the terrorists that operate over there, and the level of sympathy for the terrorists within the PA, then it wouldn’t be very surprising that money for food, medicine and textbooks wound up in the hands of terrorists. All that is a far cry from claiming that Europe supports suicide bombers. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/52 "2002-05-08T01:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \*You make an assertion. > > you prove it. > > I make an assertion. > > I’m prepared to back it up with data, evidence, cites. so is everyone else. \*\* **wring** , you’re beating a dead horse. AFAIK, no doper disagrees with my contention. Not one. If any do disagree, let’s start another thread, where I will get the data to prove that: 1. The attacks on Jews have not been headline news throughout Europe for several weeks. 2. The attacks have not been the #1 talking point of European leaders. 3. Europeans have not captured virtually all the attackers. (In fact, they’ve hardly captured any of them.) ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/53 "2002-05-08T01:09:59Z")
I must have missed something. Why’s december the red-headed stepchild? Assume, for a moment, that MAYBE funds from the EU are funneled into Palestinian terrorism by whatever means. If the possibilty, however small, exists, the EU has a responsilbity to make sure they are not used in such a fashion. If they do not, they are quite culpable for the result. There is probably a cutoff point, I have no idea where it lies, where one could reasonably assume the money is being used properly. So. Does the EU have any guarantees its hands are clean, or are they tossing money into the void with no safeguards? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/54 "2002-05-08T01:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Uh, december? The EU guys haven’t seen the evidence yet. \*\*You mean “Uh, Collounbury.” He’s the one who said the EU guys had seen the evidence. You’re _agreeing_ with me. > [@](#): > > \*\* So, they said that they lacked evidence that their donations were diverted to terrorism. The EU guys never claimed that there was no such evidence, or that they had seen the evidence and found it to be incorrect. They said they LACKED it. See? Very simple really. Clever theory, but with some problem: 1. The EU said _Israel_ had no evidence: “Wiegand said that the Israeli claims lacked evidence…” (from C’s cite) 2. The EU statement fooled someone as smart and educated as our friend **Collounbury** , so it was insuffciently clear, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/55 "2002-05-08T01:43:10Z")
First, mea culpa, I fucked up on the EU issue, having misread the stories. No fault but my own. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\ ***wring** , you’re beating a dead horse. AFAIK, no doper disagrees with my contention. Not one. If any do disagree, let’s start another thread, where I will get the data to prove that: Which contention? The one where you assert that Europe as a whole has done less than the US in re… the church bombings? I certainly would disagree that such a blanket statement is sustainable given my reading of the Europress. > [@](#): > > 1. The attacks on Jews have not been headline news throughout Europe for several weeks. You have what basis for the assertion, and what relationship between attacks and news? I presume **december** has suffered a massive upgrading in his linguistic skills to be able to make such characterizations. > [@](#): > > 1. The attacks have not been the #1 talking point of European leaders. ??? Again where is this coming from, Euro press and gov speakers have been positively obsessing about the ‘rising wave of intolerance’ --various phrasing are found. > [@](#): > > 1. Europeans have not captured virtually all the attackers. (In fact, they’ve hardly captured any of them.) I’d like to know from where we get this overall characterization. But, december old man, these things sometimes take time in democratic nations where leads have to be developed. E.g. the church bombings or other analagous events in the USA have taken months to solve. I point you, for example, to the abortion clinic bombers, some of whom remain uncaught. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/56 "2002-05-08T08:00:44Z")
If you’ll excuse me, I’ll turn first to the question I had to ask you three times to get an answer > [@](#): > > _Originally question:_ > December, do you accept that the US has also given funding to the PA? Answer > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > I answered this question YES several posts back. I pointed out that the US now intends to do something about misuse of the money. So in light of the fact you accept the US has also donated money to the PA, your OP becomes: > [@](#): > > Since groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are making widespread accusations of war crimes, let’s see whether **the US** has clean hands. > > **The US** has been donating money to Arafat. Arafat used some of that money to pay for terrorist attacks against Israel. **The US** donors allowed their donaitons to be used to pay for suicide bombs. > > So, how much blame does **the US** deserve for financially supportinjg terrorism? Are they blameless? Were they just careless? Did they commit war crimes? Crimes against humanity? Would you care to answer that OP, December, or would you perhaps view it as a simplistic, biased rant without any basis in fact? As to your other ‘points’ > [@](#): > > \*\*One of us is missing the point. \*\* Well we agree on that at least > [@](#): > > \*\*The only ways the EU could know their statement to be true are… > 2. Israel’s evidence can be presumed to be worthless on general reasoning. > > **Gary’s** metaphor about Adolph Hitler is a way of arguing _[that Israel’s evidence can be presumed to be worthless on general reasoning[p/i], but **Gary** seems to have backed away from that position._\* And no I haven’t backed away from that reasoning. If someone refuses to deliver their evidence for an allegation, I fail to see why it’s blustering to say there is a lack of evidence. Why would they hesitate to hand over such evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/57 "2002-05-08T08:12:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by barton \* > **If the possibilty, however small, exists, the EU has a responsilbity to make sure they are not used in such a fashion. If they do not, they are quite culpable for the result. There is probably a cutoff point, I have no idea where it lies, where one could reasonably assume the money is being used properly.** Please read all the above posts, in particular Yojimbo’s very pertinent link, from which I’m going to quote more as it’s extremely relevant > [@](#): > > \*[Originally linked to by yojimbo](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=292517) \* > \*\*While promising to investigate the allegations, the European Commission insists its aid to the Palestinian Authority is for civilian projects only, and is subject to rigorous controls before cash is released. > > Gunnar Wiegand, spokesman for Chris Patten, European Commissioner for external relations, said the Israeli claims would be taken seriously and investigated “as soon as the government of Israel shares its documentary evidence with us – something that is not yet the case”. > > Mr Wiegand also pointed out that the EU was not the only international organisation under fire from Israel, which has even accused the US Central Intelligence Agency of indirectly supporting terrorism by backing the Palestinian security services.\*\* If it weren’t for my fear of provoking a mods wrath, I’d post the whole article - please do go and read it (odds of December doing this - not good) EU (just like the US) donates money to PA. Serious allegation made that this money is being misused. EU says the claim is a serious matter, promises to investigate it, asks for evidence. Israel do not provide their evidence. Please tell me which of the above chain of events you think is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/58 "2002-05-08T08:29:49Z")
\>\> Assume, for a moment, that MAYBE funds from the EU are funneled into Palestinian terrorism by whatever means. Um, **barton** , that’s not the way we do things around here. We do not “assume” things. If december wants us to consider the implications of X, then he better be prepared to show X is true. SO far we have an Israeli accusation without support. The EU has said the money is contributed in two ways: specific projects and general contribution throutgh the IMF. The specific projects are tightly controlled and the IMF funds are a pool to which many other countries, including the US, contribute and Israel cannot be held responsible if there is lack of control there. Now the ball is _clearly_ in the Israeli court. It is up to Israel to prove this is not true. As long as Israel does not show any proof that this is not true The declaration of the EU should be taken at face value. \>\> AFAIK, no doper disagrees with my contention. Not one. [d]december\*\*, speak for yourself and let the rest of us speak for ourselves, ok? _I_ disagree with your contention, I am just getting tired of arguing with you as I consider it a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/59 "2002-05-08T11:49:05Z")
**Gary Kumquat** – Weigand said that _Israel claims to have evidence_ and also said that _Israel lacks evidence_. Thus, he appears to have pre-judged that Israel’s evidence is inadequate. He also implicitly criticized Israel’s case by alluding to another accusation he says Israel made about the CIA. Note that the EU says they have “rigorous controls,” which implies that they acknowlege their responsibility to oversee how their money is spent. They can’t fulfill _their_ responsibility by blaming Israel. [sub]_Europe blaming Israel_ – Why does that sound familiar?[/sub] BTW AFAIK Israel hasn’t _refused_ to share their info with the EU, they just haven’t shared it yet. A week ago the US was in the same position as the EU is today. We knew that Israel claimed to have evidence, but we hadn’t seen it yet. But, no US official was foolish enough to say “Israel lacks evidence.” As to the US role, I do think we deserve some blame, too. However, as I said earlier, AFAIK US aid to the Palestinians all goes via the UN relief agency, UNRWA. It’s the UN’s responsibility to monitor the use of that money. However, I believe the EU also provides money directly to the Palestinians, which they monitor. **Barton** , thank you for your support. Your mention of a “possibilty, however small” was an understatement. After all, the bombs actually got built; _somebody’s_ money must have paid for them. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/60 "2002-05-08T13:24:23Z")
**december** , this is a _really_ stupid game. _really_, very stupid. 1- Israel announces they have evidence money from the Eu ended up being used for the wrong purpose but they show no evidence nor do they specify anything. They just make a broad and unsupported accusation. 2- The EU says that cannot be as they have strict controls in place. As long as Israel does not make the accusation more specific and presents evidence to support it, there is _nothing_ to discuss. It is not admissible to assume things and you are asumming a whole lot. If you want me to give you my opinion on **How much blame does Europe deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?** please give me some fucking detail and evidence of how exactly _Europe is supporting suicide bombers_. You just throw out the unsupported accusation and ask us to discuss it like it is the unconstested truth. I am fucking sick and tired of your throwing out unsupported accusations. Provide the proof or do us a favor and shut the hell up for a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438.md?page=4)