# How much blame does Europe deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438 "2002-05-05T22:19:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/61 "2002-05-08T13:30:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*If you want me to give you my opinion on **How much blame does Europe deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?** please give me some fucking detail and evidence of how exactly _Europe is supporting suicide bombers_. > > You just throw out the unsupported accusation and ask us to discuss it like it is the unconstested truth. I am fucking sick and tired of your throwing out unsupported accusations. Provide the proof or do us a favor and shut the hell up for a while. \*\* Exactly. December, be honest. You’ve already decided that the PA is completely to blame for the troubles there. You’ve decided that their pinko friends in Europe are funding them. You have no interest in any argument or evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/62 "2002-05-08T13:54:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \*As long as Israel does not make the accusation more specific Specific accusations have been reported in the news. E.g., Arafat’s signiture was found on documents approving payments to terrorist groups. > [@](#): > > You just throw out the unsupported accusation and ask us to discuss it like it is the unconstested truth. I am fucking sick and tired of your throwing out unsupported accusations. Provide the proof or do us a favor and shut the hell up for a while. _Unsupported_? 😕 When a respected national leader says he has overwhelming evidence that something occurred, his statement is support, for the purpose of Great Debates. If you are implying that Sharon is a liar or Israel is unreliable, please supply evidence of past dissembling. Note that Americans have also reviewed the evidence and not questioned its validity. When would you consider something “supported?” Only after a European agrees? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/63 "2002-05-08T14:14:24Z")
December, Just show us the evidence. Show me a cite with evidence. Show anything that contains any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/64 "2002-05-08T14:26:59Z")
What does Arafat’s giving money to terrorists (which I am sure he does) have to do with the EU providing money to build a school in the area? Zero. And, as many have noted, your thread is plain inflammatory and has no other purpose because according to the same rule of three the USA has also supported terrorism by supporting Arafat. \>\> When a respected national leader says he has overwhelming evidence that something occurred, his statement is support No sir. He is in Washington with very specific interests. He is not a neutral, disinterested, party. Chris Patten says it is not true. Can you show me when Chris Patten has built a reputation for lying? If and when corroborating evidence surfaces we can discuss it but condemming the EU based on what we have is just idiotic. I am so sick of playing this game. Can we please turn it around and play **How much blame does the USA deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?**. The answer is “the same, if not more, than Europe”. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/65 "2002-05-08T14:42:59Z")
According to the Jerusalem Post > [@](#): > > May. 8, 2002 > EU studies Israeli report EU funds were abused to back suicide bombers [http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020670673044](http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1020670673044) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/66 "2002-05-08T15:09:30Z")
That article just says Europe is looking at the evidence they have been given and provides zero support for your assertion that Europe supported terrorism. \>\> EU studies Israeli report EU funds were abused to back suicide bombers That does not mean in any way that it happened. And as usual you neglect to provide any balanced objectivity and only cite what you want. You could have cited this: > [@](#): > > On Wednesday, the EU vigorously condemned the latest suicide bomb attack which killed 16 people in an Israeli pool hall. > > “Such blind attacks on innocent civilians are undignified and must be brought to a halt,” said EU foreign affairs chief Javier Solana. Now, if you want to continue playing this stupid game, why don’t _you_ answer the question **“How much blame does Europe deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?”** Please answer your own question because this is no debate at all. After you have done that please answer the following: **“How much blame does the USA deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?”** Please provide a good explanation for your answers. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/67 "2002-05-08T15:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*] why don’t _you_ answer the question **“How much blame does Europe deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?”** … After you have done that please answer the following: **“How much blame does the USA deserve for financially supporting suicide bombers?”[/** I have answered both these questions earlier in the thread. I think the EU were dupes. I think the US deserves some blame, but less than the EU, because all the US money was donated via the United Nations relief agency. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/68 "2002-05-08T15:49:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I think the EU were dupes. > > I think the US deserves some blame, but less than the EU, because all the US money was donated via the United Nations relief agency. \*\* And you reached this conclusion on the basis of which evidence, exactly? Go on. No links to editorials, no quoting factless opinions. Give an actual break down of the facts and logic that drove you to this conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/69 "2002-05-08T15:59:08Z")
**december** , please note that I asked for a _reasoned_ and explained response, not your personal, unsupported, opinion. Once you have done that, you may want to also give us your enlightened analysis about the USA supporting Arafat against wind and tide these days as the valid representative of the Palestinians. Oh, and when you say the US “just game money through the IMF”, hmmm, that’s what Europe did too so how are they any more to blame? They say all money given for specific projects was tightly controlled and only what they gave through the IMF was not directly controlled. And what about the part about the CIA training Arafat’s people? What do you make of that? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/70 "2002-05-08T16:11:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > One of us is missing the point. > > EU says Israel’s claims “lack evidence.” Can this be true? The only ways the EU could know their statement to be true are: > > 1. The EU has reviewed all of Israel’s alleged evidence and found it worthless or insufficient. > > 2. Israel’s evidence can be presumed to be worthless on general reasoning. ::sigh:: How about the third possibility, **december**? That the EU is telling the literal truth. 1. Israel makes claims about EU funding and terror. 2. EU asks for the evidence supporting those claims. 3. Israel doesn’t turn the evidence over. The evidence is “lacking” - **it hasn’t been provided**. It doesn’t say anything about whether or not such evidence exists. But guess what, son? If a prosecutor goes into court and says “In my office, I have a videotape of the defendant killing his wife,” said prosecutor isn’t going to get a conviction. Sua ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/71 "2002-05-08T16:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\* > And you reached this conclusion on the basis of which evidence, exactly? > > Go on. No links to editorials, no quoting factless opinions. Give an actual break down of the facts and logic that drove you to this conclusion. \*\* We are going around in circles. I suggest you read the entire thread. If you tell us which points you disagree with and why, I’ll be happy to discuss them with you. > [@](#): > > **sailor** Oh, and when you say the US “just game money through the IMF”, hmmm, that’s what Europe did too so how are they any more to blame? Actually I said the US gave money through the United Nations. OTOH the Washinton Post cite early in this thread said that the EU donates about $90 million a month to the PA > [@](#): > > The Israeli report noted that the European Union provided about a tenth of the Palestinian Authority’s $90 million monthly budget, a large chunk of which was spent paying the salaries of “terrorists.” In this way, said Naveh, the Israeli minister, the Europeans inadvertently supported terrorist attacks on Israel. > [@](#): > > And what about the part about the CIA training Arafat’s people? What do you make of that? Glad you asked. What I make of that is the the EU is embarassed that their financial controls haven’t worked. They’re looking for excuses. So their spokesman, Mr. Wiegand, brought in a red herring. According to **sailor** , Chris Patten said the accusations weren’t true, _even though he hadn’t seen the report._ He, too, was looking for excuses IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/72 "2002-05-08T17:13:21Z")
\>\> If you tell us which points you disagree with and why, I’ll be happy to discuss them with you. The points you have _not_ made! You have not supported your assertions and we are asking you to support them. We are looking for what is missing which is a reasoned support for your assertion that the EU supports terrorism. \>\> OTOH the Washinton Post cite early in this thread said that the EU donates about $90 million a month to the PA Yes, but it does NOT say any of that was used for terrorism and the EU has said all their programs are tightly controlled. Since you support that money _was_ used to fund terrorists, can you tell us exactly from what EU program the money was diverted and how was it used? I bet you can’t. \>\> the EU is embarassed that their financial controls haven’t worked. They’re looking for excuses. So their spokesman, Mr. Wiegand, brought in a red herring. The CIA trained Arafat’s men. That is a help more direct to Arafat’s military capability than anything the EU has done. Is that supporting terrorism or not? \>\> Chris Patten said the accusations weren’t true, even though he hadn’t seen the report. He, too, was looking for excuses IMHO So if I say “december killed his wife and I have a paper in my hand that proves it” and you say “I did NOT kill my wife” that is unreasonable because you haven’t seen the paper yet! This is rich! Patten is responding to the accusations as they were made. No more and no less. The fact that Mr Sharon says he has a paper supporting them means nothing because patten was responding to what was already said. When he sees to paper he will have a chance to respond to that. **december** , this is not debating on your part, this is witnessing. And it is a bloody waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/73 "2002-05-08T18:14:38Z")
**december** , I just read in another thread that you are Jewish and I guess that fact explains things a bit but I’ll tell you, I know quite a few Jews (in and out of this board) and you are the only one who is paranoid with a world conspiracy against Israel. We have gone around this many times. You have accused Europe in many threads and you have never provided any evidence. In the thread about military tribunals your argument was pretty much “Bush said it, I believe it, that settles it”. Even when Bush backtracked or when you were shown wrong, you never wavered. In this thread your argument is “Sharon said it, I believe it, that settles it”. Well, I am sorry to disappoint you but, in spite of favoring Israel in this dispute, I am not a fanatic and I attempt to see some evidence. Your irrational attitude does not make things any better for Jews or for Israel. It is people like you, on both sides, who are the cause of the problem. You are not helping Israel’s cause and you can clearly see a lot of people here, including me, who believe Israel is in the right and who you are alienating and making us argue against your ridiculous arguments. ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/74 "2002-05-08T23:17:21Z")
Hmm. I suggest everyone hold their horses and wait and see if the report becomes available to the public. Then everyone can decide for themselves. As the EU just got it, and the material is rather sensitive, I don’t think it’s available now. My expectation is that the EU will continue to dismiss the report. The quiet stance of the U.S. is particularly telling, I think. December is implying the EU’s stubborness is for political reasons, regardless of the evidence. It’s interesting conjecture, and worth bandying about a bit. As for the EU’s ‘rigorous controls’, I would like to see details on those, if anyone’s got some. The nuances of this stuff interests me. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2002, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/75 "2002-05-09T09:48:16Z")
You are right, the Eu is and should be pressumed innocent until any evidence proves otherwise. Unfortunately december does not need any evidence to reach that conclusion. Sharon has a big ax to grind and his assertions should be taken with a grain of salt. Can there be some loopholes in the EUs programs? Of course! Any programs anywhere, including the US can and do have holes but that does not make them guilty of helping terrorists as december insists in thread after thread. I am quite sick and tired if this Europe bashing by december. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2002, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/76 "2002-05-09T12:07:55Z")
What did I do? Why do you hate me **december**? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2002, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/77 "2002-05-09T13:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Sharon has a big ax to grind and his assertions should be taken with a grain of salt. What do people make of this. [Israel’s black propaganda bid falters as documents reveal an impotent leader not a terrorist mastermind](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=293162) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/78 "2002-05-09T13:39:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*1. Israel makes claims about EU funding and terror. > 2. EU asks for the evidence supporting those claims. > 3. Israel doesn’t turn the evidence over. > > The evidence is “lacking” - **it hasn’t been provided**. \*\* Sorry, **Sua**. The EU spokesman didn’t say the “evidence was lacking.” He said “_Israel_ lacked evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/79 "2002-05-09T13:46:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Sharon has a big ax to grind and his assertions should be taken with a grain of salt. \*\* Really? Suicide bombings are happening. There’s no dispute that Palestinian terrorists are responsible for all these massacres. Suppose they were all organized by Hamas and Hezbollah, and not by Arafat’s al Aksa Brigades. Why would it be in Sharon’s interest to falsely blame al Aksa? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438/80 "2002-05-09T13:50:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Suppose they were all organized by Hamas and Hezbollah, and not by Arafat’s al Aksa Brigades. Why would it be in Sharon’s interest to falsely blame al Aksa? Absolute, unmitigated hatred of the man (mind you, it’s mutual). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-blame-does-europe-deserve-for-financially-supporting-suicide-bombers/107438.md?page=5)