# How much could colleges afford to cut tuition rates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761 "2015-08-24T21:26:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/61 "2015-08-26T16:51:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know $125,000 American is a lot of money where you come from, but that is not much more than starting salary for new PhDs around here. The median salary in Santa Clara county is $100K and Berkeley is just as expensive. > I’m not privy to what similar senior execs in industry make, but it ain’t less. I wasn’t trying to say that they were overpaid - just that they cost a heck of a lot of money. Millions of dollars per year for a political office that doesn’t help a single student learn the material they came to the college to learn. These are positions that didn’t even exist a decade or two ago. So if you’re looking to cut the cost of college, this would be a very good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/62 "2015-08-26T17:01:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I wasn’t trying to say that they were overpaid - just that they cost a heck of a lot of money. Millions of dollars per year for a political office that doesn’t help a single student learn the material they came to the college to learn. These are positions that didn’t even exist a decade or two ago. So if you’re looking to cut the cost of college, this would be a very good place to start. It came across as “oo, they get paid so much.” It is expensive - so is everything else around here. And still people move here, damn it. (First day of school today, traffic sucked.) Another state college had a total meltdown over race related issues, started not by the administration or faculty but by students, and not responded to effectively in the eyes of many people. Spending some money to prevent or be ready for such things might actually be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/63 "2015-08-26T17:06:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Sam Stone** : > > Berkeley’s ‘Vice Chancellor of Diversity’ started with 14 employees in his ‘immediate office’, and within 3 years the number of employees had risen to 24. The vice chancellor has a salary well in excess of $200,000. A number of the people in his office carry executive titles and must be making somewhere north of $125,000. > > The diversity office runs the following programs., all related to ‘diversity’: > > Academic Achievement Programs > African American Student Development > American Cultures > Asian Pacific American Student Development > Athletic Study Center > Chicana/Latino Student Development > Center for Educational Partnerships > Disabled Students’ Program > Educational Opportunity Program > Gender Equity Resource Center > Graduate Diversity Program > Haas Institute for a Fair and Inclusive Society > Multicultural Community Center > Multicultural Education Program > Native American Student Development > Postgraduate Diversity Initiatives > Professional Development Program > SAGE Scholars Program > Staff Diversity Inititatives > Student Learning Center > Transfer, Re-entry, and Student Parent Center > Undocumented Student Program > Vice Chancellor’s Immediate Office So, they manage to run 23 entire programs, with a staff of a mere 25 people? You’re right, that _is_ remarkable, and a lot of colleges could certainly lower their costs by following that example. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/64 "2015-08-26T17:07:39Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > How would you feel if you were a poor student saddled with an extra $11,764 in student debt to pay for those people? Well, let’s take a look at what some of those programs actually DO, using your list of Berkeley offices as an example: Academic Achievement Programs: According to their website, “Our office serves students from low-income backgrounds, students whose parents did not graduate from college, and/or students from underrepresented groups.” Specifically, the programs they oversee include student support services – basically, tutoring, academic advisement, financial literacy programs, and career services – directed at low-income and first-generation students. The other programs include scholarships for low-income and first-generation students, and an intense mentoring / grad school prep program, presumably also directed at these students. In other words, this is an program specifically designed to help ME as a poor student, and I might even be getting a scholarship through it. Why on earth would I be resentful about paying for it? African American Student Development, Asian Pacific American Student Development, Chicana/Latino Student Development, Native American Student Development – Mainly, orientation programming, academic support, and mentoring targeted toward specific ethnic groups, with the intention of increasing retention among these groups. As a low-income student, I might or might not identify as a member of one of these groups or use these services, but it’s worth noting that retaining students, in general, enhances the university’s reputation; nobody wants a degree from a school known as a dropout mill. American Cultures – A program that requires students to take at least one course focusing on some aspect of American cultures. This is broadly defined, and includes courses like “Introduction to Archaeology,” various US history surveys, “Introduction to Culture and Resource Management,” and “Dance in American Cultures,” so it isn’t even really an ethnic-studies requirement. This seems like pretty standard general education programming, and I don’t see why anyone would have a problem with paying for it unless they resented general education requirements, full stop. Athletic Study Center – Advising and tutoring for student athletes. OK, _this_ one I might resent if I weren’t an athlete; at the very least, I’d be wondering why the academic support services available to the rest of the student body weren’t also good enough for athletes. But it’s pretty standard for schools with athletic programs to have one. Center for Educational Partnerships – Partners with K-12 schools to improve college preparation among low-income and first-generation students. Another program, then, that is _specifically_ targeted at this demographic group, and makes it more likely that they’ll make it to Berkeley in the first place. Disabled Students’ Program – Even if you’re not disabled, you’d really have to be kind of a jerk to resent paying for disability services. Besides, the university has to provide these services; it’s the law. Educational Opportunity Program – Another program specifically targeted at low-income and first-generation students, this time focused on peer counseling and financial assistance. Gender Equity Resource Center – Resource center for issues related to gender and sexuality, including victims of stalking, hate crimes, or relationship violence. (Some of their services, incidentally, are specifically targeted at men, including support programming for new fathers, so it’s not like this office is only for female or LGBT students; potentially, it’s programming that anyone could find useful.) Graduate Diversity Program – Offers grad school admissions assistance, financial assistance, mentoring, and advising for “educationally and financially disadvantaged students and underrepresented students.” Again, something that is in fact _targeted_ at low-income students, and intended to benefit them. Haas Institute for a Fair and Inclusive Society – This seems to be an institute for research into diversity issues, and I can see why an undergraduate student might plausibly resent paying for it; still, research is undeniably part of the university’s mission. Multicultural Community Center – A student center with a library and art gallery; this also seems to be the physical space where various student groups and associations meet, and where orientation / cultural programming targeted toward specific ethnic groups takes place. This seems to be, pretty much, a space for students and student-driven programming. Multicultural Education Program – This seems to be primarily a resource / professional development center for faculty, aimed at offering practical tips on how to make their classrooms more inclusive, respect diversity among students, and handle class discussion of sensitive topics. Again, something that directly benefits students from all backgrounds. Postgraduate Diversity Initiatives – A sub-program of the Graduate Diversity Program, described above. Professional Development Program – Aimed at recruiting and supporting low-income and minority students who want to go into STEM disciplines. Huh, diversity isn’t just for fluffy-headed humanities types. Who knew? SAGE Scholars Program – Leadership / mentoring / professional development program for low-income and first-generation students. Again, something that would specifically be aimed at me as a poor student. Staff Diversity Inititatives – Focuses mainly on diversity / equality / inclusion among employees; this, I admit, may not directly benefit students. Student Learning Center – Tutoring / writing center / academic support services for all students. Transfer, Re-entry, and Student Parent Center – For nontraditional and returning students, as well as those who are parents; these are all categories to which poor students are statistically _more_ likely to belong. Undocumented Student Program – Depending on how I felt about undocumented students attending state universities, I might reasonably have a problem with this one. But it’s worth noting that Berkeley received a massive donation from a private donor who _wanted_ the funds earmarked for undocumented students, so it doesn’t look like they’re coming from tuition. Vice Chancellor’s Immediate Office – Administration for all of the above. So, lots of programs that are _specifically intended to benefit_ low-income students or students as a whole, and at most, maybe three or four that a reasonable student from a poor background is likely to see as a waste of money. This is not a “do nothing” office. (Granted, you can still argue that the salaries for people administrating these programs are too high, but as **Voyager** points out, they’re not unreasonable for this part of the country.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/65 "2015-08-26T17:11:38Z")
How it ‘came across’ is more a reflection of your own bias, I suspect. I just looked at my post, and I don’t see a damned thing in there that could be construed as a value judgement of any sort regarding their salaries. I just listed them - I didn’t editorialize on them. And I wouldn’t have thought they were excessive salaries anyway - $125,000 for an executive position in that area is reasonable, which is why I chose the number. The point isn’t that the salaries are too high - it’s that they are unnecessary. You could eliminate the entire diversity bureaucracy and the students would never notice it. In fact, they might appreciate not having their every utterance micro-analysed and managed by a bunch of chair warmers looking for ‘issues’ to make their jobs relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/66 "2015-08-26T17:14:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, they manage to run 23 entire programs, with a staff of a mere 25 people? You’re right, that _is_ remarkable, and a lot of colleges could certainly lower their costs by following that example. That’s not the entire staff. That’s just the head office. I don’t know all of the staff that’s involved with this, because the org chart I was looking at was only for the high-level managers. And even if 23 people were running 25 programs, we have no idea how ‘remarkable’ that is because we don’t know the scope of the programs, how effective they are at whatever it is they are trying to do, or how well run they are. A ‘program’ can be little more than a pamphlet, or it can be a complex active system with full-time staff. And of course, the bigger question is, “Why do these programs even exist?” Do they help students learn their material? Do they aid in research? From what I’ve read, the Diversity bureaucracies are best seen as a net liability to the campus - forcing ‘diversity’ hires instead of the best candidates, squashing student’s speech rights, forcing professors to fill out diversity questionnaires and take part in councils and roundtables, etc. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/67 "2015-08-26T17:29:54Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > So, lots of programs that are _specifically intended to benefit_ low-income students or students as a whole, and at most, maybe three or four that a reasonable student from a poor background is likely to see as a waste of money. This is not a “do nothing” office. (Granted, you can still argue that the salaries for people administrating these programs are too high, but as **Voyager** points out, they’re not unreasonable for this part of the country.) A lot of those could be combined, or in some cases, moved to more appropriate other departments. I mean, why is the Vice Chancellor for Diversity’s department running the Athletic Study Center not being funded out of the athletic department’s budget? And I’d think you could relatively easily roll the functions of several of the others together- most of the study resource ones only seem to differ as to the target audience, and most of the diversity ones are similar. And this is a good example of what I was saying earlier- if the university had to fit within the amount of money that people pay in tuition/fees WITHOUT widespread student loans, they’d probably either have to limit themselves to extremely wealthy people, or run a lot leaner and meaner, which would almost certainly mean the end of feel-good non-core mission fluff like most of the programs on the list. US universities got by just fine without that kind of thing for decades, and they could do so again if need be. They’d also probably do without a fair number of other amenities for students; there’s nothing that says that modern-day students can’t share bathrooms, or have to have particularly nice dorm rooms, for example. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/68 "2015-08-26T17:34:00Z")
The more this thread progresses, the less it seems like “how to help poor students get an affordable tertiary education?” and more like “how we can keep the undesirables/minorities/others out of tertiary education, or at the very least feel excluded/unwelcome/unsupported?” _shakes head_ Yes, when I talk about lowering the admin costs, I’m not speaking of eliminating entire programs, but perhaps arguing if some of the salaries (and bonuses) are high (especially at the higher levels, deans, chancellors, coaches), and maybe if some things could be done with less money (maybe a decrease in redundancy and paperwork?). Speaking of coaches, I see all the ire against diversity programs, but no mention of athletics, which as was pointed out, sometimes get their own academic help. Also a reminder that, while some programs can create revenue for the school, others do not. Some football programs do bring enough money to support the other athletics in the school, for example. But not all of them do. And in any case, it could be argued that the university should have a higher mission to educate those who come from poorer and underrepresented backgrounds (that should still “deserve” that education) than to athletes who may be better off in the long run NOT attending college. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/69 "2015-08-26T18:39:41Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > The more this thread progresses, the less it seems like “how to help poor students get an affordable tertiary education?” and more like “how we can keep the undesirables/minorities/others out of tertiary education, or at the very least feel excluded/unwelcome/unsupported?” I certainly can’t find anyone in this thread who’s advocated for keeping minorities or any group out of any sort of education. **Sam Stone** focused on the Vice Chancellor of Diversity at Berkeley and the high salary and legion of underlings that go with that office. Doubtlessly there are many useless bureaucrats out there. ([The UC system’s central office alone has 2,000 of them.](http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2015/07/29/the-bumbling-bureaucrats-at-berkeley/)) So I would have preferred that the thread not focus solely on the diversity bureaucracy. If anyone crunched the numbers, that would probably turn out to be just a small part of the problem. But Sam wanting to axe the diversity bureaucracy does not mean he wants to keep anyone out of college, or that he wants anyone to feel excluded or unwelcome. Do Asian American students actually need a special office devoted just to them on top of all the other offices at a big public university that are devoted to serving students? Are Asian American students totally incapable of succeeding or not feeling excluded if there aren’t bureaucrats ready to helicopter in and address the needs of Asian American students specifically? Does the typical Asian American student care about anything that the Asain Pacific American Development Office does? It seems plausible that this office, and numerous others in a similar mold, could be removed and the relevant bureaucrats fired without preventing a single student from succeeding at Berkeley. And if that happened, money would be saved and tuitions would fall for Asian American students and all other students. And that would be a good thing for Asian American students and all other students. Personally I imagine that many minorities and poor students would find lower tuition and fees a lot more welcoming and supporting than bureaucrats who don’t do much. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/70 "2015-08-26T19:04:53Z")
I didn’t just mention Diversity, although it’s a target-rich environment. I also mentioned Syracuse and it’s across-the-board managerial bloat. You see the same thing in public schools - school systems trot out horror stories about teachers having to pay out of pocket for basic supplies, or kids going without textbooks. But then when the school system gets a funding influx all that seems to happen is that the administration grows and teachers demand higher salaries. As for the kids and their poor facilities - well, that’s a very useful situation to have when you are demanding more funding. Why would you want to fix that? My kid’s school has chronic problems with basic supplies for kids. They got a huge endowment from a couple of wealthy alumni - and used it to build a super-nice theater for the kids to hold their plays in, complete with modern lighting and audio systems, theater-style seating, etc. The fine arts faculty loves it, I’m sure. It also makes for a great place to hold conferences and give speeches. But the kids still have to share textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/71 "2015-08-26T19:25:34Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > The more this thread progresses, the less it seems like “how to help poor students get an affordable tertiary education?” and more like “how we can keep the undesirables/minorities/others out of tertiary education, or at the very least feel excluded/unwelcome/unsupported?” Outside of a knucklehead or two I totally disagree. I am very interested in getting as many people into college as possible regardless of status/race/etc but I prefer that they graduate without crippling debt. Our current solution does not seem to be working well and my opinion is that the easy access to loans is exasperating the problem. It feels like you’re trying to discredit those who disagree with you by playing the racist card. It seems that everybody agrees that higher education is much more expensive than it was, say, 30 years ago. There seems to be much conjecture on why that is (e.g. climbing walls, diversity programs, bloated administration) but is there any hard evidence (i.e. stats) on the budget differences between now and then? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/72 "2015-08-26T21:48:09Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Sorry, I was referring to the IQ stuff. He is repeating talking points we’ve heard and discredited before. That’s not what that case is about, and IQ tests are not illegal or even uncommon. Not that I really am in agreement with most of what Construct is saying, but your interpretation also seems off. IQ testing is not illegal per se, but the legal ramifications make it undesirable. Where exactly have you discredited this? The only time I can remember this case mentioned it is in a pit thread that descended into name calling. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/73 "2015-08-26T22:10:44Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Not that I really am in agreement with most of what Construct is saying, but your interpretation also seems off. IQ testing is not illegal per se, but the legal ramifications make it undesirable. > > Where exactly have you discredited this? The only time I can remember this case mentioned it is in a pit thread that descended into name calling. My own job used a (more or less) IQ test for hiring, and you won’t find a more risk-adverse, rules-obsessed, diversity-seeking employer in the world. If you are using IQ tests as a thin veneer to cover up discrimination, that’s not allowed. But tests related to the job are fine, and in some areas are routine. This whole set of fake-o talking points comes wholesale at some “racial realist” website somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/74 "2015-08-26T22:14:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I didn’t just mention Diversity, although it’s a target-rich environment. I also mentioned Syracuse and it’s across-the-board managerial bloat. > > You see the same thing in public schools - school systems trot out horror stories about teachers having to pay out of pocket for basic supplies, or kids going without textbooks. But then when the school system gets a funding influx all that seems to happen is that the administration grows and teachers demand higher salaries. > > As for the kids and their poor facilities - well, that’s a very useful situation to have when you are demanding more funding. Why would you want to fix that? > > My kid’s school has chronic problems with basic supplies for kids. They got a huge endowment from a couple of wealthy alumni - and used it to build a super-nice theater for the kids to hold their plays in, complete with modern lighting and audio systems, theater-style seating, etc. The fine arts faculty loves it, I’m sure. It also makes for a great place to hold conferences and give speeches. > > But the kids still have to share textbooks. It’s hard to imagine that Rich Alumni Dudes gave the school a chunk of cash and said: Do whatever you want. Isn’t it more likely that they gave the money specifically to improve the arts or even specifically to build the theater? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/75 "2015-08-27T00:54:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In 2012, UC Davis spent $662,000 on a ‘campus climate survey’ to track down and extinguish 'racism that could put “UC’s most marginalized and vulnerable populations at risk”. UC Davis’s own chancellor of diversity has a base salary of $250,000, plus received $60,000 in moving expenses and a $13,500 real estate allowance. That’s more in pay than their top faculty members - in fact it’s more than twice what senior faculty earn. Define top faculty. Here are the top salaries for 2013 at UC Davis: > **[globl.org](http://ucpay.globl.org/index.php?campus=Davis&name=&title=&base=&overtime=&extra=&gross=&year=2013&s=gross&p=801)** > > This domain may be for sale! ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/76 "2015-08-27T01:00:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I certainly can’t find anyone in this thread who’s advocated for keeping minorities or any group out of any sort of education. > > **Sam Stone** focused on the Vice Chancellor of Diversity at Berkeley and the high salary and legion of underlings that go with that office. Doubtlessly there are many useless bureaucrats out there. ([The UC system’s central office alone has 2,000 of them.](http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2015/07/29/the-bumbling-bureaucrats-at-berkeley/)) So I would have preferred that the thread not focus solely on the diversity bureaucracy. If anyone crunched the numbers, that would probably turn out to be just a small part of the problem. > > But Sam wanting to axe the diversity bureaucracy does not mean he wants to keep anyone out of college, or that he wants anyone to feel excluded or unwelcome. Do Asian American students actually need a special office devoted just to them on top of all the other offices at a big public university that are devoted to serving students? Are Asian American students totally incapable of succeeding or not feeling excluded if there aren’t bureaucrats ready to helicopter in and address the needs of Asian American students specifically? Does the typical Asian American student care about anything that the Asain Pacific American Development Office does? > > It seems plausible that this office, and numerous others in a similar mold, could be removed and the relevant bureaucrats fired without preventing a single student from succeeding at Berkeley. And if that happened, money would be saved and tuitions would fall for Asian American students and all other students. And that would be a good thing for Asian American students and all other students. Personally I imagine that many minorities and poor students would find lower tuition and fees a lot more welcoming and supporting than bureaucrats who don’t do much. Eliminating that office would not equal a nickel for the students at Cal. Get rid of a $250k staffer and you get to give back less than $10 per student per year. As a parent paying for a Cal student, that is nothing. The 2,000 admins at UC headquarters? That is because they fired a lot of admins at the campuses to centralize management and bureaucracy - you know, like a large company does. Do the Asians still need an office? Good question - some Asian groups are well taken care of, others are left in the dirt. If we want to get rid of special programs for some groups - go for it. Your campus will have some higher drop out rates, but who cares. We saved $10 per student after all. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/77 "2015-08-27T01:03:13Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > This basically amounts to an explanation that minority studies departments have parasitically spread their worthless courses throughout other, more reputable departments. There’s no possible way in which offering an “X’s studies” degree is free for a university: either it requires new, meaningless victimhood classes to be added, or it is emblematic of existing intellectual rot within the university. > > I’ll continue to maintain that the growth of[endless diversity initiatives](http://www.city-journal.org/2013/23_2_multiculti-university.html) and anti-discrimination task forces has greatly bloated the administrative costs of college. Wrong. What it means is that someone said to make sure you are teaching to more than just white males, and smart faculty added a bit of reading to make their class qualify to hit school-wide measures. It doesn’t take much to add some information on cross-cultural microeconomics / political science / sociology / psychology / business / biology / etc. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/78 "2015-08-27T01:08:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know $125,000 American is a lot of money where you come from, but that is not much more than starting salary for new PhDs around here. The median salary in Santa Clara county is $100K and Berkeley is just as expensive. > I’m not privy to what similar senior execs in industry make, but it ain’t less. Average base pay for an Assistant Professor (that means tenure track, but not yet tenured) in 2013 at Cal was $68k. > **[globl.org](http://ucpay.globl.org/index.php?campus=Berkeley&name=&title=ASST%2BPROF&base=&overtime=&extra=&gross=&year=2013&s=gross)** > > This domain may be for sale! ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/79 "2015-08-27T02:03:44Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Outside of a knucklehead or two I totally disagree. I am very interested in getting as many people into college as possible regardless of status/race/etc but I prefer that they graduate without crippling debt. Our current solution does not seem to be working well and my opinion is that the easy access to loans is exasperating the problem. It feels like you’re trying to discredit those who disagree with you by playing the racist card. > > It seems that everybody agrees that higher education is much more expensive than it was, say, 30 years ago. There seems to be much conjecture on why that is (e.g. climbing walls, diversity programs, bloated administration) but is there any hard evidence (i.e. stats) on the budget differences between now and then? My apologies, but it seems that, as soon as the “cut administration staff to lower budget” was mentioned, the “how to do this?” immediately went to “get rid of diversity programs”. Perhaps not the majority, you are right, but certainly the most vocal (even when given contrary evidence). I repeat that the problem has many factors, and that people here are confusing different educational institutions (for profit, private non-profit, public) and different causes for the debt. I am very much against private for-profit universities. But these are the ones less likely to offer so-called “useless” degrees and “thrills.” How is getting rid of diversity programs in UC or Syracuse or UGA or UF going to help a poor student who graduated from a for-profit that gave him/her poor education and shitty preparation for the job it was supposed to train (something related to business, management, or medicine, or even something as basic as trades like cooking, hotel management, hairstylist)? Also, as much as people ask to go back to the “no thrills”… Again how much thrill are you going to cut or are you willing to cut? Things are not and will not be the same as 30 years ago. Building codes and requirements have changed, what was new then (A/C) is standard now, high-speed internet in most universities is a must, and higher standards of health care are now common/required. Also some don’t grasp just how big some of these institutions are. When I attended UF, it was close to (if not more than) 40,000 students, and I’m sure numbers may have increased. Similar in the other colleges I attended. The student population of these places is bigger than many small towns. It may even be bigger than the town they’re in. Are you saying not to provide some services that you expect in a town (healthcare, internet, police department for example) that size? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/80 "2015-08-27T03:43:24Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I repeat that the problem has many factors, and that people here are confusing different educational institutions (for profit, private non-profit, public) and different causes for the debt. I’m on board with this. The initial problem (as I see it) is that nobody can agree where the extra money is being spent. The growing cost of higher ed seems to indicate bloat somewhere but how can we create a solution if we don’t even know what we’re solving? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761.md?page=5)