# How much could colleges afford to cut tuition rates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761 "2015-08-24T21:26:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/81 "2015-08-27T03:58:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I also grew up in a housing project. No public assistance, because my single mother worked two jobs and both her kids worked part time from age 12. I made it through college by working part-time jobs and throughout the summer. My wife did the same thing. Neither of us had any family help whatsoever. > > The current way is to take those poor kids, convince them to ‘follow their dreams’, then give them hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of rope to hang themselves with while they ‘find themselves’ in college or study something that has no prospects of earning enough back in income to pay off the student loans. > > In the meantime, this system has inflated tuition so much that even kids from middle class families are forced into the student loan system to be able to afford college. Then when they get out of college their debt overhang causes them to delay marriage, families, home purchases, ties them into a job they don’t want because they can’t afford to be mobile with all their debt, etc. > > You’ve got a long way to go to convince me that the current system is doing anyone any favors other than the people running the system. > > Getting rid of this system does not mean poor kids cannot be educated. For example, online education coupled with apprenticeship programs or work co-ops could bridge the gap. A graduated system that includes a year at a junior college learning a related trade coupled with a followup degree program could be a lot cheaper and help someone work their way through school. > > Moving to a ‘lifetime learning’ system where people don’t just got to college for four years and come out prepared for life (supposedly), but instead gradually fill in their educational ‘matrix’ and get intermediate certifications as they go would allow people to move up the ladder gradually and affordably. > > There are many ways to educate people, and many ways to signal value to an employer. To assume that our current system of higher education is the only possible game in town is silly. Coming from a lower middle class family, my education was financed by a combination of scholarships and financial aid. With the kind of system that you’re proposing, I would never have completed my BS in biology at a private university. Earning this degree led me to being accepted to medical school. I do not lack for job prospects, and have done quite well, benefiting from the current system. Under the system your proposing, I would almost certainly have been less successful than I am currently. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/82 "2015-08-27T04:20:11Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Also, as much as people ask to go back to the “no thrills”… Again how much thrill are you going to cut or are you willing to cut? Things are not and will not be the same as 30 years ago. Building codes and requirements have changed, what was new then (A/C) is standard now, high-speed internet in most universities is a must, and higher standards of health care are now common/required. Also some don’t grasp just how big some of these institutions are. When I attended UF, it was close to (if not more than) 40,000 students, and I’m sure numbers may have increased. Similar in the other colleges I attended. The student population of these places is bigger than many small towns. It may even be bigger than the town they’re in. Are you saying not to provide some services that you expect in a town (healthcare, internet, police department for example) that size? Again, if your looking at “no-thrills” why not use the FREE college I gave as an example, the College of the Ozarks. [LINK](https://www.cofo.edu/)Here is what Forbes says about it: _College of the Ozarks, in Point Lookout, MO, is a Christian liberal arts college that is interdenominational and known for its debt-free education. The school charges no tuition due to its student work programs and donations. Around 60% of the college’s revenue is derived from gift income and earnings from endowment. Forty one majors are offered, including 17 focused on education. The mandatory work study program requires students to clock 15 hours a week at one of 100 on-campus work stations, which include a dairy farm, grist mill and a student-run hotel and restaurant. Its Patriotic Education Travel Program allows students to accompany veterans to historic battle sites in places like France, Hawaii, Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The school has hosted important visitors, including former Pres. George W. Bush, former Gov. Sarah Palin and former PM of Great Britain Margaret Thatcher. The college participates in NAIA athletics. Its mascot is a Bobcat. Hard Work U is the school’s nickname. Slackers need not apply._ [LINK](http://www.forbes.com/colleges/college-of-the-ozarks/) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/83 "2015-08-27T09:47:40Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Again, if your looking at “no-thrills” why not use the FREE college I gave as an example, the College of the Ozarks. [LINK](https://www.cofo.edu/)Here is what Forbes says about it: > _College of the Ozarks, in Point Lookout, MO, is a Christian liberal arts college that is interdenominational and known for its debt-free education. The school charges no tuition due to its student work programs and donations. Around 60% of the college’s revenue is derived from gift income and earnings from endowment. Forty one majors are offered, including 17 focused on education. The mandatory work study program requires students to clock 15 hours a week at one of 100 on-campus work stations, which include a dairy farm, grist mill and a student-run hotel and restaurant. Its Patriotic Education Travel Program allows students to accompany veterans to historic battle sites in places like France, Hawaii, Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The school has hosted important visitors, including former Pres. George W. Bush, former Gov. Sarah Palin and former PM of Great Britain Margaret Thatcher. The college participates in NAIA athletics. Its mascot is a Bobcat. Hard Work U is the school’s nickname. Slackers need not apply._ [LINK](http://www.forbes.com/colleges/college-of-the-ozarks/) I did check it. The enrolment is 1500 students, rounding up. The smallest college I attended at the time had an enrolment of 25000. Also, a lot of students DO work on campus already. Part of the financial aid is work-study. There are plenty of students working in dining halls, residence halls, libraries, etc. Everywhere you’d go would be staffed by students. Personally, even I worked 15 hours or more, though unpaid, on campus labs and as research assistant. Over the summer it was 20, paid. You also forgot to add that this university relies on endowments and gifts. And that it had an issue years ago (but not extremely long ago) with one of their deans having a PhD precisely from a fraudulent [diploma mill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_the_Ozarks#Criticisms). ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/84 "2015-08-27T11:47:30Z")
I think colleges should not be allowed to advertise either. Sending piles of glossy papers to everyone age 15-18 is a huge amount of money. TV ads cost thousands of dollars per minute, and really, who would pick a college based on a commercial anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/85 "2015-08-27T11:47:55Z")
Dont they have alot of unions in California that protect the jobs of university workers? If so wouldnt that cut the amount of jobs that could be done by students or contractors? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/86 "2015-08-27T11:49:38Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I think colleges should not be allowed to advertise either. Sending piles of glossy papers to everyone age 15-18 is a huge amount of money. TV ads cost thousands of dollars per minute, and really, who would pick a college based on a commercial anyway? Or send out stuff to alumni. I graduated over 20 years ago and I swear I get something in the mail from my college about once a month. A letter. A magazine. A flyer. etc… All trying to get me to send money. And the more money you make, the more you get. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/87 "2015-08-27T13:08:51Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I think colleges should not be allowed to advertise either. Sending piles of glossy papers to everyone age 15-18 is a huge amount of money. TV ads cost thousands of dollars per minute, and really, who would pick a college based on a commercial anyway? But some students do not know that the opportunities are there. Granted, it is now perhaps a bit less valuable than it was before, pre-internet, but getting some of those packages are what convinced me to apply to some of them. I did get the packages and forms from others that I specifically requested. But it was only through those that I first saw what opportunities I had, beyond of what I thought. And I think I did applied to some of the ones I got from the “glossy papers”. Granted, some of them I did have an idea that I wanted to apply to them, but the papers helped. They are also not sent willy-nilly. Many of my classmates didn’t get them, or got different ones. They targeted students with high PSAT scores, for example. I also got a few offering summer school at their campuses (why I didn’t do it I don’t know). Perhaps they can increase the standards as to whom to send, now (especially with internet), and reduce the amount sent, but I think they are still important, overall. The ones who do TV ads were not the same doing the mail stuff. The advertising is most done in the for-profit institutions (because they need the students to make money). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/88 "2015-08-27T14:32:16Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I think colleges should not be allowed to advertise either. Sending piles of glossy papers to everyone age 15-18 is a huge amount of money. TV ads cost thousands of dollars per minute, and really, who would pick a college based on a commercial anyway? Why stop there? No one should ever advertise anything! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/89 "2015-08-27T14:51:51Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > If we want to get rid of special programs for some groups - go for it. Your campus will have some higher drop out rates How do you know that? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/90 "2015-08-27T15:03:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > How do you know that? People respond to specific, targeted attention. But a quick search can find things like this: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/16/AR2008061600199.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/16/AR2008061600199.html) > [@](#): > > “If there is a single factor that seems to distinguish colleges and universities that have truly made a difference on behalf of minority students, it is attention,” Carey says. “Successful colleges pay attention to graduation rates. They monitor year-to-year change, study the impact of different interventions on student outcomes, break down the numbers among different student populations, and continuously ask themselves how they could improve. Essentially, they apply the academic values of empiricism and deep inquiry to themselves.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/91 "2015-08-27T16:09:47Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Average base pay for an Assistant Professor (that means tenure track, but not yet tenured) in 2013 at Cal was $68k. > > [globl.org](http://ucpay.globl.org/index.php?campus=Berkeley&name=&title=ASST+PROF&base=&overtime=&extra=&gross=&year=2013&s=gross) I meant Berkeley the area being expensive, not high salaries for non-tenured profs. It also depends on department, I think. But Cal never paid well - in 1980 a famous EE professor invited me to apply, but apologized for starting salary being $15k. I went Bell Labs for double that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/92 "2015-08-27T16:12:20Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I think colleges should not be allowed to advertise either. Sending piles of glossy papers to everyone age 15-18 is a huge amount of money. TV ads cost thousands of dollars per minute, and really, who would pick a college based on a commercial anyway? The colleges who advertise are the ones looking for students. You don’t see a lot of advertisements from Harvard, Princeton or MIT. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/93 "2015-08-27T18:07:43Z")
[http://www.wsj.com/itp/20150827/us/opinion](http://www.wsj.com/itp/20150827/us/opinion) The president of the university of Colorado discusses cost-cutting and revenue-generating measures they’ve implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/94 "2015-08-27T19:08:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > [http://www.wsj.com/itp/20150827/us/opinion](http://www.wsj.com/itp/20150827/us/opinion) > > The president of the university of Colorado discusses cost-cutting and revenue-generating measures they’ve implemented. I think this is what you meant to link to: [http://www.wsj.com/articles/giving-college-administrators-a-business-education-1440628508](http://www.wsj.com/articles/giving-college-administrators-a-business-education-1440628508) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/95 "2015-08-27T20:04:08Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think this is what you meant to link to: Yes, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/96 "2015-08-27T21:32:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The colleges who advertise are the ones looking for students. You don’t see a lot of advertisements from Harvard, Princeton or MIT. Do you have any actual figures on this, such as marketing budgets? I thought it was well known that places like Harvard try very hard to get a lot of people to apply so that their acceptance rate would remain low and therefore they can get the highest possible rank. Since this is not something I have much expertise in, I could easily be persuaded that this assertion is completely wrong. I think it would be interesting to compare just how much they spend on this and other marketing compared to other schools. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/97 "2015-08-27T21:55:04Z")
I got a huge, very glossy packet from MIT _after I asked_ for admission information (this was in the early days of the Internet revolution). I don’t remember getting marketing materials from anything other than diploma mills aside from that. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/98 "2015-08-27T21:57:18Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Do you have any actual figures on this, such as marketing budgets? I thought it was well known that places like Harvard try very hard to get a lot of people to apply so that their acceptance rate would remain low and therefore they can get the highest possible rank. Since this is not something I have much expertise in, I could easily be persuaded that this assertion is completely wrong. > > I think it would be interesting to compare just how much they spend on this and other marketing compared to other schools. Two types of marketing: Those that are somewhat targeted, and those that are massive floods. The majority of ads that you see in mass media (radio, TV, newspapers) do not come from the top universities (unless perhaps they’re close by/the local universities). For example, when I was living in GA I didn’t see ads for UGA or GATech on TV, but I would regularly see ads for small private (assume for profit) universities. I would see occasionally ads on the newspaper in Athens for courses in UGA and the local community college (makes sense, these are the local schools). Way back when I was in high school, after I took my PSAT, I did get glossy catalogues and info from some of the “high up” universities. But my guess is that these were more geared towards students who had either taken the PSAT or done relatively well on it (my siblings for example didn’t get them, and some of my classmates at least didn’t get them either). So the more recognized universities do send out some marketing, but not to everyone. In contrast to the universities who advertise in mass media and even I (not their target) can see them, these other universities only market to a group that is at least college-minded. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/99 "2015-08-27T21:58:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I got a huge, very glossy packet from MIT _after I asked_ for admission information (this was in the early days of the Internet revolution). I don’t remember getting marketing materials from anything other than diploma mills aside from that. I remember getting from MIT without asking for admission information. I got from the ones I wanted admissions information, but I got from others too, which I had no interest in applying because they didn’t even have my field. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761/100 "2015-08-27T22:04:41Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > …when I was living in GA I didn’t see ads for UGA or GATech on TV, but I would regularly see ads for small private (assume for profit) universities. I would see occasionally ads on the newspaper in Athens for courses in UGA and the local community college (makes sense, these are the local schools). Did you watch college football? UGA is not particularly selective (54% acceptance rate) which suggests it’s probably advertising heavily during college football broadcasts, as most southeastern public schools do. Those may be more targeted towards raising money than attracting students, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-could-colleges-afford-to-cut-tuition-rates/728761.md?page=6)