# How much damage could an "Evil" U.S. President do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881 "2013-01-11T18:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/21 "2013-01-12T03:22:52Z")
Check out every book from the Library of Congress. Keep em for about 8 years, then refuse to personally pay the late return fees, thereby sticking it to the taxpayer and bankrupting the US. ---
**Author:** ![St.Barthgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@St.Barthgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Barthgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/22 "2013-01-12T04:57:24Z")
And then there’s Godel’s Loophole~ that the United States could easily be made into a Dictatorship; that a sufficiently evil leader could install themselves as a lifetime dictator. This would probably mean the End Of the World As We Know It. Here’s an excerpt introducing it, if you’ve never heard this story: The story of Gödel’s citizenship hearing had been much repeated over the years. What was known was that on 5 December 1947, Kurt Gödel went to his citizenship hearing in Trenton, New Jersey. The examiner was Judge Philip Forman. As his witnesses, Gödel brought his two closest friends, Oskar Morgenstern and Albert Einstein. Gödel was granted citizenship, and took his oath on 2 April 1948. Those were the reliably established facts. Afterwards, Morgenstern told many people that he and Einstein had had their hands full preventing the brilliant, but politically naive, Gödel from derailing his citizenship chances. No account directly from Morgenstern or anyone else at the hearing had survived, but hearsay versions circulated widely. The hearsay versions show considerable variation, but their burden is something like the following: Gödel, in his usual manner, had read extensively in preparing for the hearing. In the course of his studies, Gödel decided that he had discovered a flaw in the U.S. Constitution – a contradiction which would allow the U.S. to be turned into a dictatorship. Gödel, usually quite reticent, seemed to feel a need to make this known. Morgenstern and Einstein warned Gödel that it would be a disaster to confront his citizenship examiner with visions of a Constitutional flaw leading to an American dictatorship. Arriving in Princeton, the trio had no idea who the examiner would be. They happened to run into Judge Forman. Forman was a friend of Einstein’s – when Einstein became a citizen, Forman had administered the oath. How lucky this was became apparent almost immediately during the questioning. Forman happened to remark how fortunate it was that the US was not a dictatorship, which Gödel took as a cue to explain his discovery. A surprised Forman exchanged glances with Einstein and Morgenstern, cut Gödel off, and forced-marched the hearing through to a successful conclusion. there’s a paper which tries to recreate godel’s proof: Kurt Gödel’s “lost discovery” of a loophole or logical flaw in the US Constitution has been told and retold many times before. After Gödel had applied to become a US citizen in 1947, he prepared for his citizenship exam by making a close study of the Constitution. On the eve of his citizenship hearing, Gödel, the greatest logician since Aristotle, found a fatal contradiction in the Constitution (“Gödel’s Loophole”). What was it? This author offers the following conjecture: the problem with the constitution is the amending power in Article V. In brief, if the amending clause of the US constitution can amend itself, then all express and implied substantive limitations on the amending power might be overcome through a constitutional amendment…. You can find Godel’s Loophole F.E. Guerra-Pujol, Barry University in a PDF by googling it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/23 "2013-01-12T05:23:24Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > **How much damage could an “Evil” U.S. President do?** Well, that depends. Does the federal budget extend to frickin’ sharks with lasers strapped to their heads? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/24 "2013-01-12T05:25:06Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > He could get us into multiple, open ended wars, trash the economy, attack the constitution, advocate torture and kidnapping, let’s see, what else? We don’t need an **evil** president for any **that!** A stupid one would do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/25 "2013-01-12T05:27:18Z")
> [@St.Barthgirl](#): > > Kurt Gödel’s “lost discovery” of a loophole or logical flaw in the US Constitution has been told and retold many times before. After Gödel had applied to become a US citizen in 1947, he prepared for his citizenship exam by making a close study of the Constitution. On the eve of his citizenship hearing, Gödel, the greatest logician since Aristotle, found a fatal contradiction in the Constitution (“Gödel’s Loophole”). What was it? This author offers the following conjecture: the problem with the constitution is the amending power in Article V. In brief, if the amending clause of the US constitution can amend itself, then all express and implied substantive limitations on the amending power might be overcome through a constitutional amendment…. And Goedel was so stupid that he believed no one had ever thought about that before? Unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/26 "2013-01-12T05:32:53Z")
He (or she) would have to have tremendous support among the masses and also presidential allies in order to get very far, so it would have to be a long term plan. Such a president could possibly control the military as Commander in chief, jail opposition on trumped up, but plausible charges, and somehow declare a sort of dictatorship. Without calling it a dictatorship, of course. Pushing through a repeal of the 22nd Amendment (limiting presidential terms to two) would probably be involved. All that being said, it would be extremely difficult to pull off without some kind of national catastrophic crisis assisting such a person. So history would have to lend a hand as well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/27 "2013-01-12T05:56:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And Goedel was so stupid that he believed no one had ever thought about that before? Unlikely. Awright, Mr. Smarty, so **you** think of a way the U.S. Senate could be abolished with only 3/4 of the state legislatures voting for the amendment, despite the Article Five clause, “and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.” **Please, please** do, because that motherfucking needs to get done! ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/28 "2013-01-12T06:05:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Awright, Mr. Smarty, so **you** think of a way the U.S. Senate could be abolished with only 3/4 of the state legislatures voting for the amendment, despite the Article Five clause, “and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.” > > **Please, please** do, because that motherfucking needs to get done! Give every state really minimal suffrage in the Senate. Have an amendment allowing the House alone to pass all bills that aren’t related to brunch or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/29 "2013-01-12T06:22:55Z")
Obligatory Fox News answer: what is Obama doing ? That’s what an evil President would do to **destroy America**. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/30 "2013-01-12T06:26:57Z")
> [@St.Barthgirl](#): > > And then there’s Godel’s Loophole~ that the United States could easily be made into a Dictatorship; that a sufficiently evil leader could install themselves as a lifetime dictator. This would probably mean the End Of the World As We Know It. > > Here’s an excerpt introducing it, if you’ve never heard this story: > > The story of Gödel’s citizenship hearing had been much repeated over the years. What was known was that on 5 December 1947, Kurt Gödel went to his citizenship hearing in Trenton, New Jersey. The examiner was Judge Philip Forman. As his witnesses, Gödel brought his two closest friends, Oskar Morgenstern and Albert Einstein. Gödel was granted citizenship, and took his oath on 2 April 1948. Those were the reliably established facts. > > Afterwards, Morgenstern told many people that he and Einstein had had their hands full preventing the brilliant, but politically naive, Gödel from derailing his citizenship chances. No account directly from Morgenstern or anyone else at the hearing had survived, but hearsay versions circulated widely. The hearsay versions show considerable variation, but their burden is something like the following: > > Gödel, in his usual manner, had read extensively in preparing for the hearing. In the course of his studies, Gödel decided that he had discovered a flaw in the U.S. Constitution – a contradiction which would allow the U.S. to be turned into a dictatorship. Gödel, usually quite reticent, seemed to feel a need to make this known. Morgenstern and Einstein warned Gödel that it would be a disaster to confront his citizenship examiner with visions of a Constitutional flaw leading to an American dictatorship. > > Arriving in Princeton, the trio had no idea who the examiner would be. They happened to run into Judge Forman. Forman was a friend of Einstein’s – when Einstein became a citizen, Forman had administered the oath. How lucky this was became apparent almost immediately during the questioning. Forman happened to remark how fortunate it was that the US was not a dictatorship, which Gödel took as a cue to explain his discovery. A surprised Forman exchanged glances with Einstein and Morgenstern, cut Gödel off, and forced-marched the hearing through to a successful conclusion. > > there’s a paper which tries to recreate godel’s proof: > > Kurt Gödel’s “lost discovery” of a loophole or logical flaw in the US Constitution has been told and retold many times before. After Gödel had applied to become a US citizen in 1947, he prepared for his citizenship exam by making a close study of the Constitution. On the eve of his citizenship hearing, Gödel, the greatest logician since Aristotle, found a fatal contradiction in the Constitution (“Gödel’s Loophole”). What was it? This author offers the following conjecture: the problem with the constitution is the amending power in Article V. In brief, if the amending clause of the US constitution can amend itself, then all express and implied substantive limitations on the amending power might be overcome through a constitutional amendment…. > > You can find Godel’s Loophole > F.E. Guerra-Pujol, Barry University > > in a PDF by googling it. Everybody tells it, but no one can find actual documentation on it. ---
**Author:** ![powhatan\_bolling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@powhatan\_bolling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/powhatan_bolling)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/31 "2013-01-12T09:33:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > An easy way to think about these hypotheticals is to look at real life examples and postulate how things could have been different. > > Using Bush as an example, we already know his administration condoned torture, set up black sites around the world, weakened US prestige and influence by using force on every occasion, and illegally attacked critics. By using conservative media, who wanted to be used, they were able to sway public opinion for years to force their agenda, force opposing parties to kowtow to them in fear, all while making the country less safe through corruption and incompetence. > > Imagine had Bush been just a little worse. Imagine instead of leaking Valerie Plame’s name, he ordered her husband, the one who criticized the whole Nigeria yellowcake story, arrested for spilling secrets to the enemy. He could have rendered the both of them to a black site, never to be seen again. Congress was in his lap for most of 2001-2005, until the Iraq war started turning badly. Had he actively imposed more media blackouts other than the whole pictures of US coffins, spread more misinformation about how the war was going, how the death rates were, the GOP might have been able to hold on to most of their seats in 2006. > > Let’s say gerrymandering happened a few years earlier, and they didn’t lose so many seats. Let’s say the Tea Party never formed and simply those crazy right wing extremists were in Congress just one session earlier. Housing bubble pop, recession happened, yet millionaires and billionaires still got richer and still had their taxes lowered. Just this year, Mitt Romney floated Paul Ryan’s plan, which gave even more tax cuts to the rich and had tax rates for the poor and middle class go up. Let’s say all that happened just a few years earlier. > > In one 8 year term, an Evil President can take a hundred billion dollar surplus and turned it into a trillion dollar deficit. Justified American torture, attacked 2 countries, enshrined the right of the rich to exploit the poor, destroyed American prestige and influence, bankrupted the country, threw us into a recession, protected banks over homeowners, pardoned criminals, arrest dissenters, destroy the social safety net, and made laws to ensure they’d be hard pressed to lose another election. That’s probably what an Evil President can do, and more you sound like a broken robot. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/32 "2013-01-12T14:03:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Could he unilaterally pardon every federal criminal? That’s a clever idea! It appears so, based on Article Two, Section Two, Clause One: > [@](#): > > The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and **he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment**. So there’s an idea, flood the streets with the [210,000](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Prisons) federal inmates. Under [Biddle v. Perovich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biddle_v._Perovich) the inmates can’t even refuse the pardon. ---
**Author:** ![St.Barthgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@St.Barthgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Barthgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881/33 "2013-01-12T19:02:15Z")
Czarcazm, i believe that Morgenstern’s original diary entry has been located, the IAS had it …. And a document dictated in 1971 by Morgenstern recalling the incident. I’ve no idea of the veracity of this claim, but you can find a PDF of the documents at this site: [http://morgenstern.jeffreykegler.com/](http://morgenstern.jeffreykegler.com/) Hope this helps…🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-damage-could-an-evil-u-s-president-do/646881.md?page=1)