I always knew I was in the minority on this but WOW, I didn’t know by how much!
I don’t even think of songs as words + music. I think of them as poems that every once in a while have some music that I’ll notice. I barely even hear the music most of the time.
If an instrumental track comes on I will always skip it because what’s the point?
I have been known to say that certain songs would be so much better if they didn’t waste my time with minute-long musical interludes/intros.
If I say a song is really good or if a song really makes me feel something deep down in the squishy parts of my soul, then what I am saying is that the words were really powerful and/or provocative. I should never be construed as having said that the music was any good or even noticed unless specifically mentioned.
All that being said I have thousands of songs on my iTunes and hundreds of CDs. I love listening to music and singing. I listen to my iPod all day, every day at work. I know that music is a vital part of a song but I just don’t really notice it much.
Lyrics are the foundation of a song for me. They are the first thing I pay attention to when I hear a new song. They don’t necessarily have to make sense, and I don’t necessarily have to agree with them, but they have to be interesting and make me feel something. My favorite music tends to have lyrics that I feel I can deeply connect and/or relate to in some way.
That said, the older I get, the more I seem to appreciate good music for music’s sake. One of my favorite songs ever is Rush’ Workin’ Man and there’s not a whole hell of a lot to it, lyrics-wise.
You don’t have to go that far back. Listen to some of the great songs of the 30s or 40s, say, *Change Partners *or *Embraceable You *or *Stardust. *The music and the lyrics were equally beautiful. When rock took over, the beat became the most important thing, diminishing both the music and the lyrics.
I couldn’t find a Thornton quote, but Mike Stoller co-wrote “Hound Dog” and he says it was originally written about a “freeloading gigalo”. BBC link.
Probably this is mostly where I sit. I liked Odelay, I like the Beasties, I even like the lyrics of both. But I don’t try anymore to puzzle out what Beck’s talking about and one of my favourite Beastie Boys discs is The In Sound from Way Out.
What prompted the thread topic was a listen to Sleep’s Dopesmoker, which doesn’t even have lyrics for the first 20 minutes or so. When they do kick in they’re gibberish about weed people proceeding to Nazareth while carrying bongs. I still enjoyed it, which got me to thinking how little I care about lyrics these days and how often they’re misinterpreted or deliberately inconsequential.
I mentioned Lola because a friend of mine found the song offensive after somebody told him what the lyrics meant. A popular song nonetheless, so you’re doubtless right that the lyrics probably didn’t hurt. Kids love that sort of risqué trivia, so the meaning might well have helped sales.
Well, I’ve heard those, but I don’t follow what you’re saying because I don’t know who wrote them. Are you saying that the lyricist is less well known than the composer? It could be a case of the composer performing the tunes, like how Bernie Taupin is less famous than Elton John (Taupin at least gets a songwriting credit, Mozart’s librettist is pretty darn obscure, at least to me).
I disagree that beat is always the most important thing about rock music. I disagree more that more modern music has necessarily been diminished compared to the tunes you mentioned, which I personally find impossibly schmaltzy. Lyrics, I could probably agree that they have been at least downplayed in general since then. Big band singers usually have real tight ass enunciation.
I’m surprised to say I do pay attention to lyrics pretty carefully, when they’re good. All the radio-friendly stuff like from Doc Pomus, Mac Rebennack, Mick Jagger – they can really hit me even when the music is happening on a different stratosphere entirely.
I can never remember those hundreds of Great American Songbook standards I picked up over the years without at least getting started on the lyrics. And some of them still kill me, like in a make me want to cut myself way, like “Spring is Here” or “Who Can I Turn To?” Plus there’s the subtext you can bring if you’re ending a set and drop in instrumentally “I Didn’t Know What Time It Was” or “Goodnite Sweetheart Goodnite” or, if a nice piece of tail walks in, toss in a suggestive Ray Charles tune about some woman, or, if an ex walks in, “Get Out My life, Woman.” Wouldn’t work at all without the lyrics giving the continuity, even if they aren’t sung (I don’t sing and hardly ever work with singers on those type of jobs). Or if a female friend with a large nose comes around, “Polka Dots and Moonbeams” – the line about pugnosed dream and so forth. Nobody ever really “gets” the jokes, I don’t think, but it’s something that amuses the hell out of me, and they’re all good tunes musically.
Unless the lyrics are in some way exceptional I very often do the same thing
That’s very true for me, at least when we’re talking about modern musical theater. It helps that I think that Sondheim is a great composer as well as a genius lyricist. If you haven’t read it yet his Finishing the Hat is all kinds of amazing.
Lorenzo da Ponte, the guy who wrote the libretto to Figaro was an amazing librettist and is very famous for his collaboration with Mozart. Figaro, Don Giovanni and Cosí Fan Tutte are know as “the Da Ponte operas” or trilogy when talking about Mozart’s operatic production. Figaro in particular was both revolutionary and influential. The Magic Flute is admittedly a bit of a mess, story-wise. Doen’t really contradict the point being made, but still worthy of being pointed out.
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I guess I find the lyrics of lesser importance because I have over 50 albums of Brazilian popular music and I don’t know a word of Portuguese. It started with Jobim and Astrid Gilberto and kind of snowballed. Elis Regina FTW.
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I just want to say this is a pity because as a whole MPB has some amazing lyrics. (though I am a bit biased). Vinicius de Morais, Caetano Veloso and Chico Buarque are three of the best lyricists ever, IMO, Chico especially.
Well, while I think the words should be understandable, I don’t really listen to them for any real meaning, and get quite a lot of enjoyment out of songs that don’t have them. For me, the words being understandable just means you are good.
Now, when I am singing, it’s a whole other ballgame. I want to know that song inside and out. And, yes, when it’s in a foreign language, I want to know what I’m hearing, as it all jumbles together after a bit if I don’t.
I find myself drawn to the music at least as often as the lyrics. A good beat, like in this song, can make up for a mediocre voice and/or lyrics. However, no matter how great the music, it can’t make up for an intolerably terrible voice (IMHO this is generally high and whiny male vocals, but of course YMMV).
Lyrics matter to a certain extent, but not overwhelmingly. In my collection I have quite a few songs in Spanish, Hebrew, Russian, Greek, etc., and I don’t understand those languages at all. Yet I still enjoy those songs.
Thanks for the link, Dave! I’ve read that it was written in an for the period typical allegory style (not completely the right term, but English is not my first language and I can’t find a suitable translation for the word I’m looking for, but hopefully you understand what I mean) about a man the female singer got married to, under the false impression that he was bonafide but turned out to be no good; never bringing home any food or money (“never catching any rabbit”), just laying on the sofa and yelling at her (“crying all the time”), and so forth. I actually didn’t know it was a Leiber Stoller tune, I always supposed it was much older (never looked it up). Thanks for fighting my ignorance.
I think there’s more to good lyrics than just their meaning. I have a number of songs and albums in various languages, but even not directly understanding the words themselves, the lyrics still have value. Well written lyrics will still fit the rhythm of the song, and have some sort of flow with rhyming, alliteration, inflection or whatever. In fact, I find that it’s easier to appreciate those aspects of non-English lyrics precisely because I have no idea what they’re saying. That is, in some cases with English, a somewhat poor fit rhythmically may pass because it conveys a particular meaning, whereas something in another language may not because that meaning is lost.
A song can be amazing despite the lyrics being completely meaningless or having a meaning you disagree with. I.e. ‘It’s a Man’s World.’ You can kinda twist it to say that he’s not advocating that it be a man’s world, but given that this is James Brown, you know that’s not true; it’s still an awesome song.
Good lyrics can make a mediocre song worth listening to or propel a good song into the awesome zone. Um, ‘The Power of Love’ is probably a bit of a contentious choice, but for me it becomes better because of the lyrics.
A mediocre song can become truly awful by using bad lyrics. This only really happens in genres like pop where you can actually understand what they’re saying. A mediocre heavy metal song generally stays mediocre no matter what words they’re singing because nobody listening can tell anyway.
FWIW, I think the lyrics to Stairway to Heaven are pretty damn good. Look them up in full, or listen to the song, because obviously I can’t post the lyrics in full here; it reads like quite a dark poem. This bit:
Makes it clear to me that they’re describing people who think they can get to heaven by spending money or doing things that are good on the surface while also doing a lot of horrible things. Like a Mafioso killing someone then putting a thousand bucks in the church collection basket. And those people will fail. That stairway is written on the whispering wind - it’s going to fall down.
But even in the 30s and 40s, the composer was generally better known than the lyricist. Everyone raves about George Gershwin, but few mention Ira (a superb lyricist, BTW). Few can name Jerome Kern’s lyricists (Dorothy Field, especially, though Oscar Hammerstein II might be remembered because he started working with Richard Rogers). By the 50s, the lyricist was linked to the composer: Rogers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Lowe, Kander and Ebb, etc. And later Steven Sondheim tried to overshadow his collaborators before writing music on its own.
I think the quality of music and lyrics before rock had to do with the fact that the roles were separate: the composer wrote music; the lyricist wrote lyrics; and a singer sung it. This allowed a combination of the best of all three. By the rock era, one person usually did it all, and that sort of triple-threat talent was rare. Those who were known for both music and lyrics often were helped by a change in how people perceived good singing.
Sorry to hear about the cutting thing. Also, my inattention to lyrics has caused more misunderstandings than I know. “Yes, I think I will listen to some Elmore James now, because I enjoy the sound of his slide guitar. Please pay no attention, my dear, to his references to a man killing his girl for treating him like a slave, it has no bearing on our relationship.”
See, I’ve read that name before and I’ll read it again but it just won’t stick. It’s in Google and everything. Why is that?
Such an aggressive term but yeah, welcome.
SciFiSam, odd, odd, odd with a third d choices. Never thought of James Brown as lyricist worth mentioning because to me, he’s a funk machine.
“Man thinks about a little baby girls and a baby boys
Man makes then happy 'cause man makes them toys
And after man has made everything, everything he can
You know that man makes money to buy from other man”
Thank you, James Brown, now I know how the world works. First I make a baby, then I make toys, then I make some other stuff, then I, hang on, was I doing all that making stuff for free?
Then you (seriously) got me to read Celine Dion lyrics about fucking, thanks a lot.
Then you ragged on metal, which was funny because you went on to support Zeppelin. Coincidentally, I happened to be reading about both today:
“Arguably the first true metal band, however, was Led Zeppelin. Initially, Zep played blues tunes heavier and louder than anyone ever had, and soon created an epic, textured brand of heavy rock that drew from many musical sources.” AMG.
Cool that you enjoy the lyrics of Stairway, but for me, man, I spent too much time as a kid trying to puzzle them out only to reach… hey, it’s bullshit. Sounds good, though. If it’s about rich people, I think that Jesus guy already covered it, something about camels. How does not being alarmed by bustles in your hedgerow fit in? Gotta know.
Yeah, rare indeed, we’re talking Chuck Berry levels of talent, and I don’t think even CB worked in a vacuum. Who, I’ve read, was helped by the perception that he sounded white. Sort of a bridge from those exclusive big band days?
I’m a Leonard Cohen fan in the sense that I like hearing his songs sung by other people. If I go to Hell (which, let’s be honest, is certain to happen if the place exists at all), I’m fairly sure I will regularly be strapped to a chair and forced to listen to Cohen singing. Also Bob Dylan.
Hey, don’t blame me if your mind automatically goes to Celine Dion rather than Frankie Goes to Hollywood’s really famous song. Maybe you secretly wanted to read about Celine making lurve.
Yeah, James Brown’s lyrics were terrible… that was my point.
I didn’t rag on metal. I pointed out that the lyrics usually can’t be deciphered. Funnily enough, the lyrics in a lot of heavy metal songs are very poetic. But nobody can hear them.
The bustle in the hedgerow bit could just be nonsense, or it could be that wind blowing the one mentioned elsewhere. It all sounds pretty and poetic, anyway, and multiple interpretations just make it more interesting.
Not only does my mind go that way, Google does too. Looks like Frankie got trampled under foot by Celine. Which fits, cos she looks like a horse.
Thanks for pointing out what your point was, I missed it.
IMO, you’d sound less like you were ragging on metal if instead of “nobody can hear them” and “nobody listening can tell anyway” you replaced “nobody” with “I”. I can usually figure out a metal lyric, personally. You’re right about metal lyrics being real poetic, of course. I can’t count the times Slayer has reminded me of Coleridge.
I had to go searching back through the thread to try and figure out WTF you guys were talking about, since I hadn’t noticed any mention of anything by either of these artists.
Finally, I managed to figure out that they both apparently have a song called “The Power of Love.” I’ve never heard of either of these songs, but I have seen “Back to the Future” so when “The Power of Love” was originally mentioned I thought it was a reference to Huey Lewis and the News.
I had to go searching back through the thread to try and figure out WTF you guys were talking about, since I hadn’t noticed any mention of anything by either of these artists.