# How much do the intelligence/security services know about us normies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131 "2017-08-30T21:46:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/41 "2017-09-07T15:17:19Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > That doesn’t follow. Failure to monitor an actual threat doesn’t preclude monitoring ordinary citizens – it’s entirely possible that the agencies could be (bad) inept at identifying threats or (worse) abusing their surveillance powers to the point of neglecting their actual job. But it does indicate the level of attention they can provide. As others have pointed out too - there may be piles of information stored away in various databases around the government, but unless you really bubble to the top of their kettle of fish, they will not have the time or energy to seriously examine your activities. (I imagine a humorous NSA-is-after-me movie where a dyslexic terrorist keeps dialing Joe Schmoe because his cell phone number is same as another terrorist, but with two of the numbers reversed) Plus, how accessible are those databases? Let’s pick on Facebook. You and I can’t see details of someone’s life unless Facebook makes a programming error or the person fails to hide their details. So, exhibitionists and tech-illiterate are more at risk. For the private parts, the hidden details (like which IP did you post from?) presumably that data is accessible by the internal staff; so then we have to ask ourselves - what level of access would our favorite TLA (Three Letter Acronym) government agency have to this? Options: Does the NSA or FBI have automatic entry to the database and all the details, their own private VPN into the database? Do the sysadmins respond to simple queries from them? Do the company brass make all requests go through the lawyers and only hand out things that pass the smell test or comply with the law?(Do you then need to put a gag order on such warrants?) Do they maybe have moles or “friends” who bypass formal channels? The one thing I’m going to guess is that it’s not like Hollywood, where some guy sitting at home can login (somehow!) and read everything they want. Plus, serious formal databases have activity tracking logs and other access controls and logs up the wazoo, and people whose job it is to look at them. And that’s just one database. What about the rest? Do you think the NSA has a hook into the Walmart online shopping database, or Uber, or AirBnB? Is there one central “Visa” database or does each bank handle its own? Do FICO databases list your credit card numbers, or is that a chain to be followed (and how accurate are credit reports?) I see it analogous to the Law & Order scenes, where after the crime, they go down the street looking for businesses that have security cameras to review - there’s no central repository of that information like 1984’s monitors. So again - if you come to the attention of the authorities, there is probably a lot of data that they can dig up. But they have to be sufficiently motivated to dig, and likely only dig the areas that concern the situation under review. ---
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/42 "2017-09-08T01:08:22Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …there may be piles of information stored away in various databases around the government, but unless you really bubble to the top of their kettle of fish, they will not have the time or energy to seriously examine your activities… Enough NSA employees used the vast intelligence apparatus to stalk their ex-lovers and spouses that NSA management coined a special term for this: LOVEINT, a play on spy lingo for signals intelligence (SIGINT) and human intelligence (HUMINT). This was documented in The Wall Street Journal Aug 23, 2013. > [@md2000](#): > > …how accessible are those databases? Let’s pick on Facebook…we have to ask ourselves - what level of access would our favorite TLA (Three Letter Acronym) government agency have to this?.. Through PRISM, the NSA had extensive access to Facebook databases: [PRISM - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)) According to the NSA, this was obtained with the cooperation of the tech companies (inc’l Facebook), and those companies were compensated for their cooperation: [NSA: Tech Companies Knew About PRISM The Whole Time | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/20/nsa-prism-tech-companies_n_4999378.html) > **[Confirmed: NSA Paid Google, Microsoft, Others Millions for PRISM Aid](https://gizmodo.com/confirmed-nsa-paid-google-microsoft-others-millions-1188615332)** > > It looks like the NSA was a little cozier with Silicon Valley companies than we previously realized. Newly declassified documents show that the spy agency (read: taxpayers) paid Google, Facebook, Yahoo, and others millions of dollars to cover the... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/43 "2017-09-08T12:09:57Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > … > (I imagine a humorous NSA-is-after-me movie where a dyslexic terrorist keeps dialing Joe Schmoe because his cell phone number is same as another terrorist, but with two of the numbers reversed) > … My cellphone’s last 4 digits are an anagram of a local dentist who specializes in “pain management”. I sometimes feel like I’m being stalked by a mob of crazies. That’s probably better than being stalked by TLA, but I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/44 "2017-09-09T17:18:24Z")
The article in _The Wall Street Journal_ on August 23, 2013 says that there have been a handful of cases of so-called LOVEINT in the past decade. An article in _Slate_ on August 27, 2013 says that there has been 12 cases since 2003. So it appears from these articles that there is around one case a year. The articles seemed to say that anyone who did this at least lost their clearance. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/45 "2017-09-09T17:21:39Z")
I recall reading (sorry no cite) that they started asking newbies to snoop on spouses/SO’s as training, almost like a medical student might use his spouse as a guinea pig for something, and, well they found out more than they bargained for. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/46 "2017-09-09T19:49:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > May we assume that the NSA has trojan loggers or moles under deep cover at Facebook and Google? If they dont, we need to start publicly executing head honchos at the NSA for being morons. Hang on, someone’s at the door… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/47 "2017-09-10T05:46:52Z")
> [@joema](#): > > Enough NSA employees used the vast intelligence apparatus to stalk their ex-lovers and spouses that NSA management coined a special term for this: LOVEINT, a play on spy lingo for signals intelligence (SIGINT) and human intelligence (HUMINT). This was documented in The Wall Street Journal Aug 23, 2013. > > Through PRISM, the NSA had extensive access to Facebook databases: [PRISM - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)) > > According to the NSA, this was obtained with the cooperation of the tech companies (inc’l Facebook), and those companies were compensated for their cooperation: [NSA: Tech Companies Knew About PRISM The Whole Time | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/20/nsa-prism-tech-companies_n_4999378.html) > > [Confirmed: NSA Paid Google, Microsoft, Others Millions for PRISM Aid](http://gizmodo.com/confirmed-nsa-paid-google-microsoft-others-millions-1188615332) So, subsidizing tech companies with black-ops money. This may work for the A-list databases, my point is that there are dozens if not hundreds of diverse databases, which may or may not require serious cooperation to access; and then perhaps serious programming to mine sufficiently. For example, I recently ordered something from B&H Photo in New York. How accessible is their database unless the proper request comes through the right channels. To avoid customs clearing hassles, I have stuff shipped to an address just across the border, and pick it up when I drive across. Maybe they could access the Fed-Ex database, but it’s not my address; I might even use an assumed name. Maybe they can access the Visa database, but what if I were really a terrorist and chose to use pre-paid gift cards? (And I’m a legit NSA target, being Canadian…) The question of course is what sort of credentials and request are needed to share that data? If it comes from the uniformed police, possibly with a warrant, it may actually be easier than some shady character approaching the VP or IT manager and asking for a major data dump. In fact, if such an informal breach is discovered and the manager can’t prove it was the NSA or FBI (“I don’t know, it was some guy with a cheap suit and bad shoes - I call the number on the card and get a busy signal”) then the company must divulge to anyone whose data may have been compromised… ---
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/48 "2017-09-10T11:56:05Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …I recently ordered something from B&H Photo in New York. How accessible is their database unless the proper request comes through the right channels…what sort of credentials and request are needed to share that data?.. Unless you are sending a paper letter to B&H, that order likely flowed over an internet backbone. The NSA has optical taps on all key internet backbones and intercept much of the data flowing across those. This was authorized under section 702 of the 2008 FISA Amendments Act. If that traffic uses end-to-end encryption (e.g, HTTPS) it can be difficult to decrypt. However it appears the NSA is using backdoor methods to intercept this after on-premises decryption at the router level: [Snowden: The NSA planted backdoors in Cisco products | InfoWorld](https://www.infoworld.com/article/2608141/internet-privacy/snowden--the-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html) It is also possible that content is stored at the NSA’s gigantic Utah datacenter for later decryption as the technology improves: [The NSA Is Building the Country's Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say) | WIRED](https://www.wired.com/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/) The PATRIOT Act, subsequent FISC rulings and other minimization rule changes enable the FBI, the NSA, and the CIA to share unredacted information about Americans. There are some limitations on use of intelligence gathered by NSA but these are procedural, not technical. According to the New York Times Aug 3, 2013, the DEA, Secret Service, and DHS are clamoring for access to this data for their own investigations of drug use, tax evasion, and copyright infringement. Nobody knows the exact state of the current access. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/49 "2017-09-10T12:10:42Z")
And even if you can’t decrypt the traffic, just knowing of the traffic’s existence can be a huge boon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131/50 "2017-09-11T17:03:53Z")
> [@joema](#): > > The PATRIOT Act, subsequent FISC rulings and other minimization rule changes enable the FBI, the NSA, and the CIA to share unredacted information about Americans. > > There are some limitations on use of intelligence gathered by NSA but these are procedural, not technical. According to the New York Times Aug 3, 2013, the DEA, Secret Service, and DHS are clamoring for access to this data for their own investigations of drug use, tax evasion, and copyright infringement. **Nobody knows the exact state of the current access.** Until now! [bum-bum-bummmmmmm!] The Civil Liberties Protection Officer at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, who is the congressionally-established watchdog charged with investigating these sorts of things, wrote an article on Lawfare today that has some interesting information on just this question. > [@](#): > > As Tim explains, to target surveillance against a U.S. person anywhere in the world, an individualized court order must be obtained showing, among other things, probable cause to believe that the U.S. person is an agent of a foreign power. In 2016, there were 336 U.S. persons who were the targets of such orders. . . . > > Under Section 702, the IC may only target a non-U.S. person reasonably believed to be outside the United States who will likely possess, communicate, or receive foreign intelligence information. . . . > > In 2016, there were 106,469 targets under Section 702. It is possible that some non-U.S. person targets are communicating with U.S. persons. We refer to those as “incidentally collected” communications. > > NSA and CIA may only query information collected under Section 702 for foreign intelligence, while the FBI may in addition query the information for evidence of a crime. The statistical transparency report shows that in 2016, NSA and CIA queried the contents of Section 702 communications with 5,288 search terms concerning known U.S. persons and that 3,914 NSA Section 702 reports contained U.S. person identities. > > **FBI receives a small subset of the Section 702 collection and reported that in 2016, there was one instance in which Section 702 information concerning a U.S. person was received and reviewed by an FBI analyst in response to a query designed to return evidence of a crime unrelated to foreign intelligence information.** So the “state of current access” of law enforcement to tap certain communication intercepts for criminal investigations, as far as 2016 goes, was one. [https://www.lawfareblog.com/beyond-snowden-and-transparency-section-702](https://www.lawfareblog.com/beyond-snowden-and-transparency-section-702) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-do-the-intelligence-security-services-know-about-us-normies/795131.md?page=2)