# How much does someone have to disagree before they are no longer part of a movement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928 "2000-10-14T21:50:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/21 "2000-10-16T01:15:06Z")
Actually, David, it’s been my observation that the Fundamentalist Protestant set makes voting Republican a matter of faith and morals. The Catholic Church, aside from a hard core that the rest of us consider a bit peculiar, does not. If you speak well of a liberal political candidate, no matter how upstanding, or ill of a conserviative one, no matter how sleazy, in the hearing of a group of Fundamentalist Protestants, you are lucky if all they do is give you dirty looks and move away from you as though fearing some vile contagion… And no, this is not just an outsider’s perception. I went to a fundamentalist Baptist school during Junior High and my freshman year of high school, and they actually sponsored a schoo “field trip” which consisted of hauling the students out into a semi-rural area, where we were made to distribute campaign literature for a Republican congressional candidate. Of course, I suppose that you could consider the conservative priests you mentioned to be Fundamentalists, but they are more of the stripe of the Fundy Prots than representative of the Catholic Church. Fundamentalists seem to cut across all denominational lines, though most of the Prots will refuse to recognize the Catholics as Christians. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/22 "2000-10-16T01:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > “Fundamentalists seem to cut across all denominational lines, though most of the Prots will refuse to recognize the Catholics as Christians”. Fundamentalists won’t? Or protestants won’t? 😕 I was raised protestant, and was taught that Catholics were the original christians. Where the hell are you coming from, Ireland? _ **ExTank** “Mostly Harmless :wally”_ ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/23 "2000-10-16T02:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > \*\*Actually, David, it’s been my observation that the Fundamentalist Protestant set makes voting Republican a matter of faith and morals. \*\* This may come as a surprise to many Dixiecrats. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/24 "2000-10-16T02:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ExTank \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > “Fundamentalists seem to cut across all denominational lines, though most of the Prots will refuse to recognize the Catholics as Christians”. > > Fundamentalists won’t? Or protestants won’t? > > 😕 > > I was raised protestant, and was taught that Catholics were the original christians. > > Where the hell are you coming from, Ireland? > > _ **ExTank** > “Mostly Harmless :wally”_ > \*\* Fundamentalists won’t. We are. Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/25 "2000-10-16T02:52:09Z")
**TheaLogica** , I’ve been involved in several churches on the “fundamental” side of mainline Protestant; including Southern Baptist, non-demoninational evangelical, and the home-church shepharding movement. I used to watch the 700 Club fairly regularly. I spent quite a few years at a private, very fundamental, Christian school. Never in my life did I ever get the slightest hint that Catholics weren’t Christians. Sure, there might be some real loonies out there affecting a fundamentalist veneer while they hide in the woods or behind Websites and bash Catholicism, but I do not believe this is a part of very many Protestant creeds, fundamental or not. As **Rysdad** indicated, down South there are still very many Protestants who would rather keel over right now than vote for a Republican. True, that is changing as the political parties realign in the South, but the “yellow-dog” Democrats still exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/26 "2000-10-16T20:38:23Z")
Hmmm. Don’t have a lot of experience with Fundamentalists of the Southern variety, except for what I’ve seen on TV, being a Yankee girl and all, but the transplants from the South I knew were pretty staunch Republicans. The Northern Baptists pretty much divided the world up into Democrats and Christians, even though Jimmy Carter, a professed born-again Christian, was President at the time. The faculty and staff at TCB heartily endorsed Reagan. Of course, word hadn’t gotten out about the astrologers that Nancy consulted on his behalf… And at the Baptist school I attended, we were, in fact taught that Catholics were not Christians. I almost walked out of devotions one morning because an invited guest speaker stated as much, and I considered myself Catholic at the time, even though I wasn’t practicing. The administrator said nothing to the contrary, so I assume the statement had his endorsement. I found a Chick Tract on my desk once, and it scared the bejeebers out of me. And these folks weren’t hiding out in the woods. The church was in a city of over 100,000. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/27 "2000-10-16T20:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Brian: Otters’ noses? > Reg: I don’t want any of that Roman rubbish! > Judith: Why don’t you sell proper food? > Brian: Proper food? > Reg: Yeah, not those rich imperialist tippets! > Brian: Oh, don’t blame me, I didn’t ask to sell this stuff! > Reg: All right, bag of otter’s noses, then. > Rogers: Make it two. > Reg: Two. > Rogers: Thanks, Reg. > Brian: Are you the Judean People’s Front? > Reg: Fuck off! > Brian: What? > Reg: Judean People’s Front! We’re The People’s Front of Judea! Judean People’s Front, God! > Rogers: Blighters… > Brian: Can I…join your group? > Reg: No, piss off! > Brian: I didn’t want to sell this stufff, it’s only a job! I hate the Romans as much as anybody! > All in PFJ except Brian: Ssch! Ssch! Ssch! Ssch! Ssch! > Brian: Oh. > Judith: Are you sure? > Brian: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already. > Reg: Listen! If you wanted to join the PFJ, you’d have to have really hate the Romans. > Brian: I do! > Reg: Oh, yeah, how much? > Brian: A lot! > Reg: Right, you’re in. Listen, the only people we hate more than the Romans, are the fucking Judean People’s Front. > All in PFJ except Brian: Yeah! > Judith: Splitters! > Rogers: And the Judean Popular People’s Front! > All in PFJ except Brian: Yeah! Splitters! > Loretta: And the People’s Front of Judea! > All in PFJ except Brian: Yeah! Splitters! > Reg: What? > Loretta: The People’s Front of Judea. Splitters! > Reg: We are the People’s Front of Judea! > Loretta: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front. > Reg: People’s Front! God… > Rogers: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg? > Reg: He’s over there. > All in PFJ except Brian: Splitter! (from Monty Pythons Life of Brian) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/28 "2000-10-17T05:33:13Z")
What could anyone possibly add to that, except to say, “I’m not a Roman, mum, I’m a Jew. A Yid, a Kyke, a Hebe, a Hooknose. I’m a Red Sea Pedestrian, and proud of it!” ---
**Author:** ![APB9999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB9999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB9999)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/29 "2000-10-17T06:50:38Z")
Leaving aside all the examples for a second, Satan, if I understand the topic it might also be asked “who decides what a label means?” If a set of people, A, is characterized by having some defining set of characteristics (like beliefs), then anyone NOT having those characteristics is not a member of A. The debate seems to be how to decide what the characteristics are. Does being a Democrat mean being pro-choice? If so than anyone not prochoice is not a Democrat. This either is or is not obviously the case, depending on who you ask. The right to decide the characteristics that define the group A only becomes an issue after the label takes on a life of its own and can survive redifinitions, hence the attempts of various political parties to “reinvent” themselves. I would say that in practice, everyone has to decide for himself what the labels he applies to himself mean. If he then finds that using that label has no communication value because other people assume it means something else, he usually fights to redefine the term in other people’s minds or stops using that label. The latter is usually easier. I have had this experience with calling myself an atheist. To me, that means I think the existence of God is extremely unlikely, if formally possible. “Atheist” seems more accurate than “agnostic” to me, because I put the probability so low (below, say, 1%); agnosticism seems to me to be a term for people who are more on the fence about it than I am. But most people assume “atheist” means that I assert with absolute conviction that there is no God, and start demanding “proof” from me. So I need a new label; just haven’t found one yet. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/30 "2000-10-17T12:06:34Z")
APB: Try “nonbeliever.” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/31 "2000-10-17T15:16:39Z")
APB: You hold what philosophers call the weak athiest position: “I don’t believe in God because I see no evidence for his existence.” THe Stong Athiest Postition goes : “I don’t believe in God because I have proof he does not exisist”. The Agnostic position goes: “I am withholding judgement on the existance/non-existance of God.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2000, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928/32 "2000-10-18T05:39:07Z")
Mum: Leave that Welsh tart alone! Brian: I don’t really want to, Mum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-does-someone-have-to-disagree-before-they-are-no-longer-part-of-a-movement/36928.md?page=1)