# How much farther do we let Mexico slide toward being a defacto narco state before we step in? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248 "2010-05-04T03:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/21 "2010-05-04T13:05:01Z")
I used the term flippantly to describe Mexican Federal law enforcement. Checking google (after typing the above), I don’t believe I was hugely far off, though if you want to point out that the Mexican army is not the same as Federal law enforcement, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/22 "2010-05-04T13:31:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, it’s not how it _always_ works. What I’m suggesting would be giving the Mexican army better tools and firepower to even things up a bit. If the Americans are going to fund the narcos by buying the drugs, why not fund the Federales, too? What makes you think we don’t already provide them with a lot of equipment or that they don’t have enough of it? I always thought the problem with the federal and local authorities in Mexico, both law enforcement and the court system, was more a problem of corruption than lack of expertise or equipment. I think throwing more money and equipment at the problem has not been working very well in Mexico or, as someone else pointed out, Colombia. From NPR last month, [Pressure Rises For More U.S. Aid In Mexico Drug War : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124731385) > [@](#): > > In 2007, the Bush administration and its Mexican counterpart signed the Merida Initiative, a three-year $1.5 billion plan to fight the narcotics trade. While the money has been appropriated, the spending of it is still in the works. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/23 "2010-05-04T13:41:18Z")
Hence the “proven-honest” qualifier in my first post on the subject. I’m assuming at least some of the Mexican power structure can be trusted. If not, then the issue is moot and nothing short of fomenting revolution is likely to work, and likely not even then. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/24 "2010-05-04T13:46:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hence the “proven-honest” qualifier in my first post on the subject. I’m assuming at least some of the Mexican power structure can be trusted. If not, then the issue is moot and nothing short of fomenting revolution is likely to work, and likely not even then. I beg your pardon? Revolution? Try owning up to your responsibilty and legalize. But that of course is impossible in such a morally superior country as your own. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/25 "2010-05-04T13:50:20Z")
No argument from me on either point, i.e. legalization is good, and my country (Canada) is morally superior. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/26 "2010-05-04T13:57:38Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I beg your pardon? Revolution? Try owning up to your responsibilty and legalize. But that of course is impossible in such a morally superior country as your own. Bryan’s profile says he lives in Montreal. So he’s not suggesting _his_ country go to war–he’s recommending it to us. Sorry, no. The US needs to change its laws to make the drug trade less profitable. And our government needs to work with Mexico’s to improve the lots of the people of both countries. Some of our wingnuts are convinced that our first tentative steps toward UHC have us on the slippery slope to Commie Domination. Perhaps some of them will embark on a crusade to free Our Northern Neighbor from such tyranny! WIll Bryan embrace his “liberators”? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/27 "2010-05-04T14:02:06Z")
Why can’t we do both, like the late Earl Warren? No seriously, there are good reasons for not invading Mexico – in fact it’s so strange to even think about it that I can barely believe I just typed that. But not being able to legalize over here is not one of them. It’s like screaming that we shouldn’t care about universal health care until there aren’t any starving children in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/28 "2010-05-04T14:02:31Z")
Hey, Canada’s got your back! And I mean that in the geographical sense, i.e. we’re on the opposite side from Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/29 "2010-05-04T14:05:56Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Do we have to step in and cross the border into the Mexican border territories and restore order at some point just for our own national interest? While tragic, the large number of drug related murders in Mexico don’t qualify as anything even close to a pretext for an invasion. I’d say this idea is not on the table, but actually it’s not even in the kitchen. Aside from the military being overstretched and the deficit being huge, and fact that the chaos would be a boon to drug cartels and not a hindrance, imagine the effects a war would have on trade and consider the administration trying to sell an invasion of Mexico to the U.S. population. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/30 "2010-05-04T14:51:45Z")
We get something like a quarter of our oil imports from Mexico, I suspect the resulting spike in gas prices would piss off the American public enough that whoever ordered the invasion would pay some pretty hefty consequences. Agree that just legalizing the more popular drug imports would be a better plan. Note that we’d have to legalize production (or at least importation), though, and not just consumption. And I believe the largest chunk of the drug cartel money comes from cocaine, so while I think when people talk about drug legalization they picture legalizing personal consumption of pot, the reality is that to kill off the Mexican drug cartels, we’d have to legalize US production of Cocaine (is that even possible now that I think about it, can you grow coca in the US? Well, I guess you could just legalize importation of either the plant or the raw materials) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/31 "2010-05-04T15:01:46Z")
Colombia’s improved significantly in the last ten years. That’s a product, however, of both governmental successes in restoring order and popular confidence in the government. Right now Mexico has neither, but its problems are not as bad as Colombia’s either. The narco-traffickers are battling with law enforcement and the military, but they’re not trying to set up a guerrilla statelet within Mexico. If Mexico asked for American helicopter gunships etc., I suppose it’s possible that we might agree to send them. I don’t see that happening, though, and I don’t see the US ever going in without Mexican approval. It seems to me that the problem with legalization is that it can’t reasonably go far enough. Legalization of pot seems plausible. Cocaine, maybe. Heroin possibly under very limited circumstances. But methamphetamines? Can you really foresee any reasonable possibility that that could ever happen? Is it really even a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/32 "2010-05-04T15:01:49Z")
> [@theR](#): > > From NPR last month, [Pressure Rises For More U.S. Aid In Mexico Drug War : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124731385) Is that when we gave them a bunch of CH-43 helicopters that were in such a state of disrepair that they ended up giving them back? > [@Baboonanza](#): > > It does seem that this is largely a problem of the U.S.s own making. Providing a massive black market for narcotics while at the same time allowing the free trade of firearms is a pretty bad combination for an impoverished border country like Mexico. > > Really I feel sorry for the Mexicans, they’re the ones paying the price for the United State’s idiotic ideologically driven policies. Poor Mexico. So far from god, so close to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/33 "2010-05-04T15:18:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, Canada’s got your back! > And I mean that in the geographical sense, i.e. we’re on the opposite side from Mexico. What do you mean by “we,” Paleface? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/34 "2010-05-04T15:24:00Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It seems to me that the problem with legalization is that it can’t reasonably go far enough. Legalization of pot seems plausible. Cocaine, maybe. Heroin possibly under very limited circumstances. But methamphetamines? Can you really foresee any reasonable possibility that that could ever happen? Is it really even a good idea? Maybe, but hopefully as you move to harder and harder drugs, the market becomes smaller and smaller. A cartel that can support itself off of pot and Cocaine sales might find it harder to do so off Meth and Heroin. No doubt there will still be a criminal element dealing in such drugs if they remain illegal, but ideally they wouldn’t have the funds to support their own armed pseudo-states. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/35 "2010-05-04T15:33:07Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Well, I’m sure most of the Mexicans will greet us liberators who have come to save them from their failed narco state. And then we can use the revenues from Mexico’s oil exports to pay for the cost of our involvement. I can’t picture anything going wrong with this plan. I rack up points for you for this post. I can just see us eating up Mexico’s adulation, nam, nam, nam! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/36 "2010-05-04T15:34:26Z")
This is a really stupid idea, and it does not appear that the OP has any interest in actually defending his thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/37 "2010-05-04T15:45:41Z")
I say we go in there and kick some brown ass! Amirite?! Huh? Huh? Who’s with me? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/38 "2010-05-04T15:46:02Z")
I find it interesting people from other countries are crowing at us about “legalization.” How many countries in the world have legalized the following things for consumer recreational use: -Marijuana -Heroin -Cocaine -Meth You guys may be surprised to find out that even the “softest” of drugs like marijuana is **illegal in most countries** , even most of Europe. Now, in many places it is significantly “decriminalized”, but that doesn’t mean the black market doesn’t exist. For example last I heard Canada has something like $6 billion in annual production value from illegal cannabis “grow-ops.” So even in a country with very liberal drug laws compared to the United States, you still have a thriving black market. Pretty much the only thing I can see eliminating the black market for products like marijuana (or _mota_) is when the laws are such that you can buy it in Wal-Mart. Decriminalization will just make it easier for end-users to not worry about getting busted for small amounts, but it will still leave the production (and the real money making) in the hands of violent organizations like Mexican drug cartels that will kill anyone who tries to compete with them. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/39 "2010-05-04T15:47:21Z")
Well, instead of spending trillions on Iraq, why don’t we spend trillions on Mexico, creating jobs and a middle class who don’t want to live in a narco state? I’m talking out my ass here though. I’m ashamed to say I don’t know much about Mexico really. They’ve got tons of open space and sunshine. We need lots of base load power and I think nuke plants are probably too expensive for the US, but what about Mexico? Solar and wind too, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/40 "2010-05-04T15:49:11Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Colombia’s improved significantly in the last ten years. That’s a product, however, of both governmental successes in restoring order and popular confidence in the government. > > Right now Mexico has neither, but its problems are not as bad as Colombia’s either. The narco-traffickers are battling with law enforcement and the military, but they’re not trying to set up a guerrilla statelet within Mexico. They’re getting [close](http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/criminal-offenses/12678167-1.html). > [@Mark Stevenson / AP](#): > > Organized crime is seeping into Mexican society in ways not seen before, making it ever more difficult to combat. Besides controlling businesses, cartels provide jobs and social services where government has failed. > > “Today, the traffickers have big companies, education, careers,” said Congresswoman Yudit del Rincon of Sinaloa state, which has long been controlled by the cartel of the same name. “They’re businessman of the year, they even head up social causes and charitable foundations.” > > Local officials say they do not have the manpower to investigate cartel rackets and refer such cases to the state, which hands them over to overloaded federal agents because organized crime is a federal offense. > > A federal police report released in April notes that often no one confronts the cartels, “not the police, because in many cases there is probably corruption, and not the public, because they live in terror.” > > After media reports questioned whether Mexico was becoming a failed state, Calderon insisted to The Associated Press in February that his country is in the hands of Mexican authorities. How bad has it gotten when the President has to “insist” to media that the government is still in charge? > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It seems to me that the problem with legalization is that it can’t reasonably go far enough. Legalization of pot seems plausible. Cocaine, maybe. Heroin possibly under very limited circumstances. But methamphetamines? Can you really foresee any reasonable possibility that that could ever happen? Is it really even a good idea? Full legalization of marijuana alone would make a big difference. > [@David Luhnow / WSJ](#): > > Growing numbers of Mexican and U.S. officials say—at least privately—that the biggest step in hurting the business operations of Mexican cartels would be simply to legalize their main product: marijuana. Long the world’s most popular illegal drug, marijuana accounts for more than half the revenues of Mexican cartels. See [this article](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704254604574614230731506644.html) for more about the economics of the cartels. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248.md?page=3)