# How much farther do we let Mexico slide toward being a defacto narco state before we step in? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248 "2010-05-04T03:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/41 "2010-05-04T15:50:37Z")
I’ll also say that I’d be totally fine with even the most hardcore drugs like heroin, PCP, and et cetera being 100% available at a local Wal-Mart. Mainly because I don’t believe there’s any real use in the current practice of making these products illegal to possess or manufacture. Many of these drugs destroy lives, many of them turn people into dangers to themselves and others. However, guess what, alcohol does as well. Alcohol going back to the time when ancient man first drank fermented grape juice has probably lead to more accidental deaths, murders, and other “third-party victimization” incidents than all other drugs in human history combined. (I’m just guessing, I wouldn’t be totally shocked if I was wrong.) Society shouldn’t _want_ people getting addicted to drugs (including alcohol), but the way to correct that isn’t through making the substance itself illegal to possess or produce. All that does is create a situation in which there is a demand and only illegal activity can fill it. This creates a black market which is totally unregulated and in which disputes and competition is going to be settled by violence. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/42 "2010-05-04T15:53:29Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Full legalization of marijuana alone would make a big difference. Yep, but full legalization would have to include making it 100% legal to produce and grow the stuff right here in the United States. It would also have to make it so that it was a simple commodity that you could go buy at Wal-Mart or a Smoker Friendly store just like you can with tobacco products. Until that happens though, you won’t see the black market disappear. It doesn’t matter if you decriminalize me carrying a joint around if I’m still buying from a dealer who is still buying from a supplier who is buying from a supplier who is buying from the cartel. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/43 "2010-05-04T15:57:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Pretty much the only thing I can see eliminating the black market for products like marijuana (or _mota_) is when the laws are such that you can buy it in Wal-Mart. Decriminalization will just make it easier for end-users to not worry about getting busted for small amounts, but it will still leave the production (and the real money making) in the hands of violent organizations like Mexican drug cartels that will kill anyone who tries to compete with them. That’s right. Full legalization is the only way to go. The cultivation, possession, transport across state lines, sale, purchase and use of marijuana must all be legal (for adults only, of course). A moderate tax on sales is fine. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/44 "2010-05-04T16:05:58Z")
This is starting to mirror a conversation I had in real life recently. About a month ago I turned a real life friend onto the AMC series _Breaking Bad_ (series is about a High School chemistry teacher turned meth producer.) One night I was at his house and he was about halfway through the second season of the show. We started to talk about Mexico’s problems and how the U.S. demand for illegal drugs is the lifeline of these organizations. Something that we wondered was: If all illicit drugs were fully legalized tomorrow, who would take up the mantle of production and sales? I have a hard time seeing a major pharmaceutical company wanting to get involved in the production of meth or cocaine for consumer recreational use. An issue that started to tingle the mind was the issue of legal liability. I imagine most established companies would be extremely scared of selling a product like PCP. Pfizer would definitely end up in court facing a wave of multimillion dollar lawsuits when they had crazed PCP junkies killing people. You’d also have the families of every ODed junkie who injected too much heroin suing them as well. My thoughts along those lines then brought up a question: why doesn’t this happen to alcohol producers? People regularly kill others while under the influence of alcohol (drunken fights, drunk driving), people regularly die of alcohol poisoning, and people regularly die of chronic alcohol use. I wonder what it is that has mostly protected the producers of alcohol from being crippled by lawsuits from the families of drunk driving victims, frat boys that die from bonging tequila, and et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/45 "2010-05-04T16:20:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ll also say that I’d be totally fine with even the most hardcore drugs like heroin, PCP, and et cetera being 100% available at a local Wal-Mart. > > Mainly because I don’t believe there’s any real use in the current practice of making these products illegal to possess or manufacture. Many of these drugs destroy lives, many of them turn people into dangers to themselves and others. > > However, guess what, alcohol does as well. Yes, but alcohol isn’t as habit forming or as destructive as some [other drugs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/46 "2010-05-04T16:39:41Z")
Undoubtedly true, but still, look at where it is on that chart. It’s probably the most used recreational drug in America (after caffeine, if you count caffeine as “recreational.”) Anyway, in a lot of ways I think alcohol is more of a danger than heroin or cocaine. Is it as habit forming or does it cause as much physical harm? Not according to that chart. At the same time, the fact that the perception of heroin is that you can’t be a heroin user and be a functional member of society creates a big road block to heroin use ever becoming as widespread _societally_ as alcohol. Heroin is so destructive that even if it were fully legalized I have serious doubts as to whether very many additional people would start using it. Most people that use alcohol can still maintain productive lives. It’s a lot harder with heroin. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/47 "2010-05-04T16:40:02Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I find it interesting people from other countries are crowing at us about “legalization.” > > How many countries in the world have legalized the following things for consumer recreational use: > > -Marijuana > -Heroin > -Cocaine > -Meth Here, all of the above except meth have been decriminalized. I personally believe they would become legalized if not for the threats of some kind of retatliation from the USA. We are very tired of all of the violence. We are also very tired of being made to be the bad guy in the minds of the people in the USA. Demand drives supply and we all know where the demand is coming from. The “war on drugs” is a joke. It has been for nearly 50 years. Some people just can’t grasp the idea that while prohibition exists there will always incredible profits that will stimulate supply. It is an unwinnable war. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/48 "2010-05-04T16:47:32Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Here, all of the above except meth have been decriminalized. I personally believe they would become legalized if not for the threats of some kind of retatliation from the USA. > > We are very tired of all of the violence. We are also very tired of being made to be the bad guy in the minds of the people in the USA. Demand drives supply and we all know where the demand is coming from. > > The “war on drugs” is a joke. It has been for nearly 50 years. Some people just can’t grasp the idea that while prohibition exists there will always incredible profits that will stimulate supply. It is an unwinnable war. Where is “here” (Canada?), and what does “decriminalized” mean? Because as long as large scale production is prosecuted (and it still is in Canada, in fact not too long ago the Canadian RCMP called it one of the biggest concerns of law enforcement in all of Canada) then it’s still mostly going to be a black market business feeding unsavory organizations that black markets produce. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/49 "2010-05-04T17:01:52Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > It does seem that this is largely a problem of the U.S.s own making. Providing a massive black market for narcotics while at the same time allowing the free trade of firearms is a pretty bad combination for an impoverished border country like Mexico. > > Really I feel sorry for the Mexicans, they’re the ones paying the price for the United State’s idiotic ideologically driven policies. I don’t want to make this a gun thread-hijack, but “free trade of firearms” hasn’t a thing to do with Mexico’s problems. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/50 "2010-05-04T17:12:35Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > I don’t want to make this a gun thread-hijack, but “free trade of firearms” hasn’t a thing to do with Mexico’s problems. Of course it does; thanks to our gun fetish we are the armory of the criminals of Mexico, and quite a few other places as well. Funny how it’s considered reasonable to care about drugs and illegal immigrants from Mexico, but you are a wild eyed loony if you care about the weapons going the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/51 "2010-05-04T17:26:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it does; thanks to our gun fetish we are the armory of the criminals of Mexico, and quite a few other places as well. Funny how it’s considered reasonable to care about drugs and illegal immigrants from Mexico, but you are a wild eyed loony if you care about the weapons going the other way. Our supplies of guns being sent to Mexico isn’t through “free trade” it is through smuggling. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/52 "2010-05-04T17:27:38Z")
No trade could be freer than that. 😃 But we’d be greeted as liberators anyway. Then it’ll be time to straighten out those damn Guatemalans. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/53 "2010-05-04T17:46:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it does; thanks to our gun fetish we are the armory of the criminals of Mexico, and quite a few other places as well. Funny how it’s considered reasonable to care about drugs and illegal immigrants from Mexico, but you are a wild eyed loony if you care about the weapons going the other way. You and I probably agree more than we disagree on gun issues, but I’d submit that guns are actually a secondary problem in the Mexican context. If we somehow staunched the supply of American guns to Mexico tomorrow, the cartels would still have formidable standing arsenels and the cash (and motivation) to obtain arms from elsewhere. We might make it somewhat more difficult for the cartels to engage in violence - but not, I suspect, enough to make an appreciable dent. On the other hand, legalization of marijuana alone would possibly make enough of a dent in cartel finances to put a lot of these guys out of business, or at least reduce the scale of their operations (and violence). Control the flow of money, and you limit the flow of arms - not just from the US, but from everyone. Control the flow of money, and you even reduce the incentives to use the guns already in-country. And legalization is probably the best way to control the flow of money. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/54 "2010-05-04T17:58:55Z")
About 20% of firearms recovered from cartels are traced to the US. There is no smuggling of automatic weapons to Mexico. Guns sold in the US do not significantly affect the problems in Mexico, and if they were eliminated they would be replaced by more guns from elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/55 "2010-05-04T18:21:49Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > This is something that is too prevalent on these boards. When it comes to México, most posters really dont know much of anything. Now could you kindly explain excatly who the “federales” are? Without using Google, por favor. Easy. They’re the ones who ain’t got to show you no stinking badges. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/56 "2010-05-04T18:26:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Easy. They’re the ones who ain’t got to show you no stinking badges. They coulda had the narcotrafficers any day, but they always let them slip away. Out of kindness I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/57 "2010-05-04T18:31:59Z")
Well, if we are going to invade Mexico, we’d better do it soon. Once that border wall is completed, we won’t be able to get in any more! ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/58 "2010-05-04T18:32:38Z")
Mexico’s an interesting case, because unlike many other countries, it has a solid foundation for functional democratic and rule-of-law institutions. I don’t really have an answer, but it seems to me that whatever the solution is, it needs to involve strengthening these institutions somehow. Perhaps targeted and supervised grants aimed at reforming these institutions so that they can effectively deal with the narcos? I do agree that it will be probably difficult to do much given our current drug laws, though. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/59 "2010-05-04T18:41:35Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > legalization of marijuana alone would possibly make enough of a dent in cartel finances to put a lot of these guys out of business, or at least reduce the scale of their operations (and violence). Control the flow of money, and you limit the flow of arms - not just from the US, but from everyone. Control the flow of money, and you even reduce the incentives to use the guns already in-country. And legalization is probably the best way to control the flow of money. How would it put them out of business? The cartels already control the transport of marijuana on the Mexican side of the border. If it were to suddenly become legal, what would stop the same people from producing and transporting marijuana to the US? I’m all for the legalization, control and taxing of marijuana production, sales and import. I think it would result in a lot less waste of money and resources from the federal, state and local governments of both the US and Mexico. Maybe there will be a lot less murder in places like [Ciudad Juarez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez#Drug_cartel_violence), but I don’t see any reason why the ownership or control of the business on the Mexican side of the border would change hands. Legalizing drugs would make criminal organizations into legitimate businesses on both sides of the border and end the farce of very wealthy and powerful people openly violating the law by employing the people who are supposed to enforce the law against them. This is a double-edged sword, because of the deeply ingrained culture of corruption among Mexico’s government and criminal elite and their employees along the border. Legalization would probably be a step in the right direction, but will most likely cause unforeseeable new problems. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248/60 "2010-05-04T18:58:20Z")
How much longer should Mexico tolerate america continuing to create an artificially inflated market for drugs, thereby funding the criminals that destabilize their own country? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-farther-do-we-let-mexico-slide-toward-being-a-defacto-narco-state-before-we-step-in/538248.md?page=4)