# How much free will do we really have and do we exercise it at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2002, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442 "2002-03-15T09:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/1 "2002-03-15T09:42:26Z")
I have started going swimming, once a week on Thursday; as I got changed, it struck me that every time, I was taking off exactly the same pair of green socks; on a thursday, I **always** wear green socks (but I was not consciously aware of this routine until then). I had already noticed this sort of thing before; as I shave my face in the morning, I always lather it in the same way, then shave it in the same way. I saw a TV programme a while back that asserted that a very large proportion of what we might imagine to be deliberate choices are simply reflexes or habitual routines and that our mind actually tricks us into thinking we _chose_ to do it _after the event_. I believe that this was deduced from examination of the brain and it was said that the part of the brain\* that is active when someone thinks about what colour socks to wear is active _after_ the bits that control the motor actions responsible for picking them up; a sort of _Last Thursdayism_ of the mind, if you like. \*[sup](I know it’s not as simple as that)[/sup] Is it therefore possible that _none_ of our actions are conscious choices and that in fact we merely have the _illusion_ of volition? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/2 "2002-03-15T09:44:01Z")
(I should add that the green socks are washed every Friday) ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/3 "2002-03-15T13:06:05Z")
You can prove the presence of free will (or at least the ongoing impression that I what one decides is one’s own choice) by making a choice _now_. For instance, I am wondering whether to open the window or not. It is a little warm inside, but pretty chilly outside. My choice: I am going to open the window. ::pause:: And now the window is open. So, not only did the choice happen _before_ the action, I can confirm this by rereading this post. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/4 "2002-03-15T13:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sirjamesp \* > \*\*You can prove the presence of free will (or at least the ongoing impression that I what one decides is one’s own choice) by making a choice _now_. > > For instance, I am wondering whether to open the window or not. It is a little warm inside, but pretty chilly outside. > > My choice: I am going to open the window. > > ::pause:: > > And now the window is open. > > So, not only did the choice happen _before_ the action, I can confirm this by rereading this post. \*\* I think that this would only prove that the _illusion of choice_ can precede the action; your choice may already have been made at some sub/non-conscious level and your episode of wondering whether you will or not may just be your brain’s way of forcing you politely. ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/5 "2002-03-15T13:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > I think that this would only prove that the _illusion of choice_ can precede the action; your choice may already have been made at some sub/non-conscious level and your episode of wondering whether you will or not may just be your brain’s way of forcing you politely. Well, it’s a step in the right direction! 🙂 Well, how about if I link a decision to something else, so that subconscious desires cannot come into play. For instance, I might shut the window now - but I will link this decision to a toss of a coin. Heads, I shut the window. Tails, I leave it open. (I rather hope it’s tails as the sun has just gone in). ::toss coin:: TAILS! The window is now shut. Are we getting closer? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/6 "2002-03-15T13:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sirjamesp \* > \*\*Well, it’s a step in the right direction! 🙂 > > Well, how about if I link a decision to something else, so that subconscious desires cannot come into play. > > For instance, I might shut the window now - but I will link this decision to a toss of a coin. Heads, I shut the window. Tails, I leave it open. (I rather hope it’s tails as the sun has just gone in). > > ::toss coin:: > > TAILS! > > The window is now shut. > > Are we getting closer? \*\* So who made the choice there; you, your subconscious mind, or the coin? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/7 "2002-03-15T13:43:10Z")
BTW, I’ll say now that anyone attempting to turn this thread into a religious debate about freewill/predestination will be taken to the pit and shot through the head. That is **my** choice (or is it?). ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/8 "2002-03-15T13:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > So who made the choice there; you, your subconscious mind, or the coin? I made the choice to leave it to chance - whereas my subconscious would have opted for one choice or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/9 "2002-03-15T14:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*BTW, I’ll say now that anyone attempting to turn this thread into a religious debate about freewill/predestination will be taken to the pit and shot through the head. > > That is **my** choice (or is it?). \*\* Damn. I was just about to ask how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. But oh, no. You have to go and interfere with my free will to hijack this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/10 "2002-03-15T15:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sirjamesp \* > \*\*I made the choice to leave it to chance - whereas my subconscious would have opted for one choice or the other. \*\* Or you _thought_ you made the choice to leave it to chance, simply because that’s the comforting lie that your mind requires to stay sane. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/11 "2002-03-15T15:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*…You have to go and interfere with my free … \*\* If indeed such a thing exists… ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/12 "2002-03-15T15:55:21Z")
I am currently of the mind that neither free will nor determinism exist. A very interesting book on your _after-the-fact-last-thursdayism_ mind is Consciousness Explained by Daniel C Dennett. He calls the mind a struggle between the _Orwellian_ factor and the _Stalinist_ factor, and he notes (correctly, if his two fations are accurate in any way) that the individual cannot, upon inspection of memory, whether it was altered as it was made or if it was altered after it was made, or if–in fact-- it is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Nonny\_Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@Nonny\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonny_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/13 "2002-03-15T23:46:06Z")
The idea that we don’t have free will is nothing more than an intellectual conceit. Whatever factors are involved in the process of making a decision, it is made within us, and the systems making it are part of us. Therefore, we are the ones making the decision. Nonny ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/14 "2002-03-15T23:55:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nonny Mouse \* > \*\*The idea that we don’t have free will is nothing more than an intellectual conceit. Whatever factors are involved in the process of making a decision, it is made within us, and the systems making it are part of us. Therefore, we are the ones making the decision. > > Nonny \*\* Yes, but we’re talking about _conscious_ freewill. ---
**Author:** ![Erofeev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e57/32.png) [@Erofeev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erofeev)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/15 "2002-03-16T00:21:56Z")
Are you suggesting that, if you make a choice, and then change your mind to prove you have free will, your subconscious has already made the choice to apply free will and the subsequent choice also? If so, then how would you test the capacity for free will? Hmmm… Now I’m beginning to wonder whether my tendency to be contrary is not so contrary after all. I better go get that Dennett book. ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/16 "2002-03-16T00:55:43Z")
Spinoza said something interesting stuff about this. It pretty much boiled down to causes determining your actions. If it weren’t warm, you wouldn’t want to shut the window, so the temperature determined the condition of the window, not your free will. It’s kind of similar to Descartes’s “Initial Push” theology. I don’t know if I agree, but it’s an interesting point. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/17 "2002-03-16T00:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Erofeev \* > \*\*Are you suggesting that, if you make a choice, and then change your mind to prove you have free will, your subconscious has already made the choice to apply free will and the subsequent choice also? If so, then how would you test the capacity for free will? > > Hmmm… Now I’m beginning to wonder whether my tendency to be contrary is not so contrary after all. I better go get that Dennett book. \*\* Equivocation is possibly strong evidence for true freewill; the alternative would have to be that the subconscious decision-maker was also a devious trickster, implying a distinct personality. FTR I don’t believe that _everything_ we do is devoid of free will, but of course I can’t prove it; I just find it an interesting philosophical question. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/18 "2002-03-16T21:15:21Z")
I’m not sure what test one could put forward—even as a thought experiment _a la_ Schrodinger’s Cat—which could prove decisively that we have conscious free will. And, in fact, what could even be meant by _unconscious_ free will? Trying to move free will to the realm of the unconscious is playing a game where we cannot access what we want to prove (or disprove). We would have free will, but wouldn’t know it? That seems contrary to thought on free will. > [@](#): > > _Sayeth Erofeev_ > Are you suggesting that, if you make a choice, and then change your mind to prove you have free will, your subconscious has already made the choice to apply free will and the subsequent choice also? I’m saying that there is no such thing as choice. Our minds are a set of competing algorithms: competing for access to all other portions of algorithms, or at least ones that they might conceivably affect. For example, there are a number of things that a person might say at any one time to another person. Which one actually gets said? Do we tell them that we find their current clothing to be rather dull, or fantastic? Do we tell them what we ate for breakfast this morning, if in fact we ate anything at all? Do we tell them about our plans for financial security, or about our complete inability to regularly do the dishes? The context of the existing conversation could help, triggering certain speech, but even at that I personally find that I sometimes say things which, were I prompted previously, I would never admit a desire to express. Commonly, we call such expression a “brain fart” or some other colloquialism. But does that really encapsulate what is happening here? We had a thing in mind that moment, or earlier that day, or whenever, and we simply blurted it out without thinking. I don’t know, it is an interesting notion. When I take into account what I understand about science, evolution, and so on, I feel compelled to accept that consciousness—whatever it is—is probably an epiphenomenon, and that the real work done is by parts of our mind which are either open for inspection or not understandable by that inspection. In many ways I _feel_ like I have free will, but what does that really demonstrate? ---
**Author:** ![Nonny\_Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@Nonny\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonny_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/19 "2002-03-17T04:21:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Yes, but we’re talking about _conscious_ freewill. \*\* Well, of course! I don’t make a lot of decisions when I’m _unconscious._😃 Nonny ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442/20 "2002-03-17T05:46:41Z")
How can you have free will and yet _fail_ to exercise it? If you don’t exercise free will, it is because you absolutely could not? If so, then you didn’t have free will. On the other hand, did you choose not to exercise free will? Then you have just made a willful choice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-free-will-do-we-really-have-and-do-we-exercise-it-at-all/98442.md?page=2)