# How much human experience would a Jesus actually get? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174 "2010-01-23T23:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/21 "2010-01-25T01:18:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Christ _had to_ come to Earth? Why did he have to? Overdue library books. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/22 "2010-01-25T01:18:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > But **monavis** said Jesus died so that other humans wouldn’t have to. But humans still die, every last one of them. To me that means that plenty of humans “died” in the sense that they didn’t live forever. But Jesus lives forever. So he didn’t _really_ die. Not in the sense **monavis** was referring to at least. And now you’ve tapped into the Christian concept of the afterlife. Jesus didn’t come to keep us from dying, but so that we could be raised back to life. He himself died and came back, and now we can, too. As for the question: y’all are making one particular assumption that is not warranted: the idea that Christ, in human form, had all the knowledge of the Father. There’s even a point where he talks about not knowing something: [quote] Matthew 24:36 (NIV) says: _No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father._ There’s no reason to assume that Christ new any more than the average Christian. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/23 "2010-01-25T01:37:04Z")
[quote=“BigT, post:22, topic:526174”] And now you’ve tapped into the Christian concept of the afterlife. Jesus didn’t come to keep us from dying, but so that we could be raised back to life. He himself died and came back, and now we can, too. As for the question: y’all are making one particular assumption that is not warranted: the idea that Christ, in human form, had all the knowledge of the Father. There’s even a point where he talks about not knowing something: > [@](#): > > Matthew 24:36 (NIV) says: > _No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father._ > > There’s no reason to assume that Christ new any more than the average Christian. But your quote clearly shows that he knew something that the people he was talking to didn’t know. Whether he had all of the knowledge of the Father isn’t as important as the question of whether he knew more than Lazar Wolf the butcher. He knew things that humans don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/24 "2010-01-25T03:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Catholic theology posits a Limbo, which Dante portrayed as the first circle of Hell. Souls there were comfortable, content, and not tormented, but they were separate from God. It would be more precise to say that Catholic theology posited a Limbo. Since Vatican II, the Church’s view on Limbo has been pretty much “Maybe, maybe not, we don’t know”. It would not actually be counter to Catholic theology to say that no human has ever gone to Hell: The only people specifically known to be there are Satan and his angels. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/25 "2010-01-25T04:39:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I know you think you’re explaining it, but you’re really not. This makes no sense whatsoever. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Christ _had to_ come to Earth? Why did he have to? Why was God unable to simply redeem humanity without coming to Earth? What prevented him from doing so? Let me try again. To begin with, it’s premised on the concept of collective guilt and redemption. Adam and Eve’s sin tainted all of humanity, and Jesus’ sacrifice redeemed all of humanity. This is alien to our post-Enlightenment individualist thinking, but it’s the way Christianity is constructed. God gave humanity free will, and humanity chose to sin, of its own volition. To redeem that sin, to make it right, humanity had to pay a penance or punishment, analogous to a criminal paying a fine, serving a sentence, or (in those days) submitting to a physical harm. God couldn’t simply waive the rules, ignore the sin, and declare humanity redeemed. To do so would mean that humanity’s decision to sin would have had no consequences, and if there are no consequences to that choice, then the choice was meaningless. Think of a parent shielding grown children from the consequences of bad behavior, and thereby infantilizing them. If humanity’s choices are made meaningless, then effectively humanity no longer has free will; God would be destroying an essential part of our nature. But then God cheats. Yes, humanity has to pay for its sin to be redeemed, but he decides that he will become human and then pay the penance himself. And he does this out of love. Same disclaimers. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/26 "2010-01-25T04:47:46Z")
I guess your question, OP, illustrates the flaw in using reason to comprehend the spiritual experience. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/27 "2010-01-25T04:52:29Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I guess your question, OP, illustrates the flaw in using reason to comprehend the spiritual experience. And statements of this sort are usually followed by a true believer proudly saying, “Exactly!” ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/28 "2010-01-25T05:24:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And statements of this sort are usually followed by a true believer proudly saying, “Exactly!” Now there’s a leap of faith! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/29 "2010-01-25T05:27:54Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Now there’s a leap of faith! Nope-just an educated guess based on previous experience. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/30 "2010-01-25T05:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Let me try again. To begin with, it’s premised on the concept of collective guilt and redemption. Adam and Eve’s sin tainted all of humanity, and Jesus’ sacrifice redeemed all of humanity. This is alien to our post-Enlightenment individualist thinking, but it’s the way Christianity is constructed. > > God gave humanity free will, and humanity chose to sin, of its own volition. To redeem that sin, to make it right, humanity had to pay a penance or punishment, analogous to a criminal paying a fine, serving a sentence, or (in those days) submitting to a physical harm. > > God couldn’t simply waive the rules, ignore the sin, and declare humanity redeemed. To do so would mean that humanity’s decision to sin would have had no consequences, and if there are no consequences to that choice, then the choice was meaningless. Think of a parent shielding grown children from the consequences of bad behavior, and thereby infantilizing them. If humanity’s choices are made meaningless, then effectively humanity no longer has free will; God would be destroying an essential part of our nature. > > But then God cheats. Yes, humanity has to pay for its sin to be redeemed, but he decides that he will become human and then pay the penance himself. And he does this out of love. > > Same disclaimers. No, it still makes no sense. Who was Jesus sacrificed to? Who was God paying penance to? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/31 "2010-01-25T12:26:58Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Right… that’s what I don’t understand. What does coming to earth and pretending to die have to do with any of that? 😕 > > Besides… Before Jesus, did everybody die, or did they suffer eternally? That seems like two completely different things there. Anyway, it seems like there’s still a lot of suffering and dying going on. I understand your point. Reading the Bible left me with more unanswered questions, like in Genesis, where the punishment for sin was death, and no mention of going to a hell,loss of soul, or eternal suffering. I know if my child was going to die and ressurect after a few hours I wouldn’t be upset. That is a reason why I too cannot see how terrible it was that Jesus, who’s main purpose was to die for a few hours is a big deal! People still die, and are told there is suffering after death for all eternity, so I can’t understand why that should be if Jesus paid the price for man’s sins, or why a God would wait until so many years to send a redeemer. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/32 "2010-01-25T12:38:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There’s no reason to assume that Christ new any more than the average Christian. Had that not been the case, he would probably have asked his father a lot of complicated questions. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/33 "2010-01-25T12:43:39Z")
[quote=“BigT, post:22, topic:526174”] And now you’ve tapped into the Christian concept of the afterlife. Jesus didn’t come to keep us from dying, but so that we could be raised back to life. He himself died and came back, and now we can, too. As for the question: y’all are making one particular assumption that is not warranted: the idea that Christ, in human form, had all the knowledge of the Father. There’s even a point where he talks about not knowing something: > [@](#): > > Matthew 24:36 (NIV) says: > _No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father._ > > There’s no reason to assume that Christ new any more than the average Christian. As I read the Bible it seems to me that Jesus never thought of himself divine any more than any other human, as I have stated before in other posts; he quoted the psalmist who called all men God. and asked why he was said to have blasphemed by calling God his father, and reminded the people he was speaking to, that their fathers were also called god and son’s of god, so if he had spoke to just one, he would have said, your father called god and son of god. He also referred to the people that he considered God their father as well as He was often quoted as saying, My father and Yours. He taught them to pray," Our Father". If He and the Father were one, as some translate it to be, then he would have all the knowledge that God was said to have, and since he also said he would rise in 3 days(although it was not really 3 days) then he knew. I thnk a soldier who goes into battle to save others, not knowing if he will survive or even have an eternal reward makes a bigger sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/34 "2010-01-25T13:56:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > For some reason as I was falling asleep last night I started thinking about the Jesus story and the idea that Jesus, though divine, got to experience being human up to and including death. > > But when I think about my own life, I realize that the biggest obstacle I face is uncertainty. I don’t know what will happen tomorrow. I don’t know if I’ll overcome whatever life throws at me. I don’t know if I’m making the right choices. I don’t know how I’ll die. I don’t know that I’m a god. I don’t know that there’s a magnificent afterlife. > > If these questions aren’t at issue, how much of the human experience are you getting? How much can you know about your future before you aren’t living the same sort of life as your neighbor is living? Jesus lived by faith and by the leading of the Holy Spirit, He was not all knowing as a man, He did not know everything about the world (Luke 8:45), nor everything about heaven (Matt 24:36). It appeared He learned about His destiny as He learned about God through the teachings and the scriptures. This is exactly our instructions from God in scriptures, to find out who we really are and our destiny. Paul also knew what was ahead and that he was being sent to die once he connected to God through Lord Jesus. Jesus shows what is possible for all of us if we seek God, you have the same potential in you, to accept Jesus and have Him live through you, and you will know these things, and become a adopted child of God with the same status in the eyes of God as His Son. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/35 "2010-01-25T14:16:00Z")
So, let me see if I’ve got this right. Non-acceptance of Jesus = doomed Acceptance of Jesus = fluffy bunnies and chocolate rivers This should be a no-brainer, really. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/36 "2010-01-25T15:33:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, it still makes no sense. > > Who was Jesus sacrificed to? Who was God paying penance to? Christian belief is that Jesus was sacrificed to sin. Think of original sin as a chasm opened up between humanity and God. Jesus’ death laid down a bridge across that abyss. If it helps to be more literal about it, Jesus was sacrificed to the rules that God had laid down. God found a way to hold humanity to the letter of the rule while in fact giving them an out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/37 "2010-01-25T15:49:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, let me see if I’ve got this right. > > Non-acceptance of Jesus = doomed > Acceptance of Jesus = fluffy bunnies and chocolate rivers > > This should be a no-brainer, really. Finally, a rational explanation as to why we celebrate Easter with chocolate bunnies. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/38 "2010-01-25T16:27:09Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, let me see if I’ve got this right. > > Non-acceptance of Jesus = doomed > Acceptance of Jesus = fluffy bunnies and chocolate rivers > > This should be a no-brainer, really. And IMHO that no-brainer is part of the plan of God, everyone to come eventually to repentance and acceptance of Jesus. People will continue to follow their path of doom, some even into death and beyond, until they realize that their path leads to ultimate destruction, and then will turn to Jesus (the grave itself is not a barrier for God as Jesus has overcome the grave.) It’s just a matter of how low do they want to sink, or do they have to sink, before realizing this. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/39 "2010-01-25T16:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Christian belief is that Jesus was sacrificed to sin. Think of original sin as a chasm opened up between humanity and God. Jesus’ death laid down a bridge across that abyss. > > If it helps to be more literal about it, Jesus was sacrificed to the rules that God had laid down. God found a way to hold humanity to the letter of the rule while in fact giving them an out. Sacrificed to sin? Sacrificed to the rules? Maybe you need to stop and actually think about your religious beliefs for some time. You seem to be just repeating slogans. Start with this: do you believe God is all-powerful? Yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174/40 "2010-01-25T17:45:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Sacrificed to sin? Sacrificed to the rules? > > Maybe you need to stop and actually think about your religious beliefs for some time. You seem to be just repeating slogans. > > Start with this: do you believe God is all-powerful? Yes or no. Sacrificed to himself, even.Remember that God is absolute justice as well as mercy. He cannot or will not excuse the slightest flaw or imperfection. You or may not like being a Littrle Nemo (humans in general seems to inevitably despise what they are while tremendously overly proud of pretending to be what they are not). God, however, will not toelrate you being less than the perfect Little Nemo. And either you must submit to his making you perfect, or you must eventually flee from his grace. There is no third option. It amy be that you simply don’t want to be a Little Nemo: you’d rather be an Obama or a Brad Pitt or a Donald Trump. Well, tough: he didn’t ask you, you won’t makem a good one anyway, and you’re probably overestimating how good or happy those people are,and even if you weren’t, you’ve set your sights pretty low. The greatest of all humanity now is darn near nothing compared to what we will become. A Lincoln or an Aristotle or a Ghandi are nothing compared to the Saints. Heck, the Saints int heir mortal lives are nothing comapred to the Saints. And we have no right to be, less to be anything in particular, much less to become something which could only make us unhappy. Now, it is not in His nature to force us to be good. He could perhaps well do this in theory. But he does not or cannot (and with Him, the difference is irrelevant) simply make us good. It might make us happy, but it would displease him. To do so would be a terrible crime, and ultiamtely destroy the very geratest thing about us: our ability to chose. He wants us to choose good, but if he made us do so, we would become either marrionettes or slaves. Now, some people have said that used the old saw that if God is all-powerful, He can make a rock so big he can’t lift it.. My own view is mixed on the subject: yes, God can do anything which is possible, but he makes things possible or impossible by His very existence. That is, He does not (or cannot) offend against the logical consequences He Himself creates. Our humans reason, though flawed and small, is not a useless tool for understanding spiritual truth. However, for reasons we don’t ourselves know (but many have speculated upon), He does allow Satan to tempt us. And the devil makes it very hard for us to be what we should be instead of following a fashion, or the feeling of the times, or even our worse whims. Because of this, men were subjectd to death. There’s some dispute over whether physical death (as well as disease and illness) came about because we polluted our universe, or whether that’s the spiritual death we die over time as we become more and more monstrous and less and less human. it could be both (and yes, time is no objection here to Christians; the consequences of the Fall need not antedate the Fall). Now, this is where Jesus comes in. We made many moral mistakes. Regardless of original sin or not, each and every one of us has offended against justice numerous times. Jesus talked, quite frankly, as if he were the one we sinned against. He claimed the power to forgive _all_ sins, everywhere. We do not think he was exaggerating in the slightest. In coming to earth as a man, he mixed his divine essence with our mortal flesh - yes, every man, woman, and child who has tasted the Body and Blood of Christ has a glimpse of the divine creator within. Jesus also taught a great deal, and frankly reminded us a great many times (as he still does today) that we are not really living up to what he expects, and that we need to do better. Thus, however, is probably the least of his accomplishments and deeds. And he also died for us. Now, a great deal of theology has been written about this, and I’m not going to try and answer the dispute here. There are a lot of theories about how Christ did it. What Christians all believe is that in dying, Jesus undertook a repentence that humans could not do. He said in effect, “You are not strong enough to repent, therefore I shall do it for you.” Now, some people woudl say that we have sinned and violated God’s perfect law that we owed him an infinite debt and Jesus offered to pay it for us (C. S. Lewis said he once thought this was rather silly, but later on realized that however simple it sounds it’s a pretty logical conclusion) . Some would say that Jesus, being both God and Man, was able to shoulder our sins. Other might argue that by literally dying for humankind, Jesus washed their sins away. What we all agree on is that it did work. Now, the problem here is that each and every Christian theology has some slightly different ideas about it all. And furthermore, most Christians has siome mor or less muddled mix of these ideas. Probably most people aren’t going to study the theology, even though they probably should. But you can’t argue against people with a child’s idea of Christianity without looking (and for that mater, basically ebcoming) an odler bully who taunts a child with his simple ideas of arithmatic. You may be quite decent at multiplication with a caluclator in hand, but the child may know _everything_ right about addition without any electronic aids. No doubt he’ll learn about multiplication eventually. In the meantime, you may be racing ahead and trying trickier math than you can really handle and all the while feeling how superior you are, not because of any innate advantage, but because of what has been handed to you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-human-experience-would-a-jesus-actually-get/526174.md?page=3)