# How much is the MA election a national statement/referendum on anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652 "2010-01-20T02:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/41 "2010-01-20T15:54:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What the GOP should do is what they did in 1994 - a Contract with America, where they lay out a clear, limited agenda. Don’t know if there is a Gingrich equivalent who can put it together - maybe Newt himself can advise the Republs on how it is done. It would be a good idea to include some kind of limited health care reform package. Focus on catastrophic coverage and tort reform. Both are popular, and doable - and tort reform in particular won’t bust the budget and will actually do something about the root causes of health care inflation. Yeah…if there was ANY leadership in the party right now. The Republicans will be twisting in the wind for some time. If they can’t get their act together by November we might start to see a third party forming. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/42 "2010-01-20T16:00:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > That’s true so long as Democrats continue shutting Republicans out of the debate and telling they have to vote for everything the Democrats want or sit on the sidelines. > > But there are lots of things that could get widespread bipartisan support. New trade agreements. Some modest regulatory reform. Deficit reduction measures. Modest health insurance reform. Higher education reform. Programs to help minimize real estate defaults and bankruptcies. You know, boring day-to-day good governance, instead of sweeping ideological change. Forget deficit reduction. Congress is whoring for more $$$. > [@](#): > > Pending in Congress is a measure to increase the Debt Limit by $290 billion, which amounts to six more weeks of routine borrowing for the federal government. (The House just passed the increase, though the Senate has yet to act. It is expected to approve the measure.) [http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/16/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5987341.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/16/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5987341.shtml) THIS sort of irresponsible debt & borrowing is what, I think, is driving the wave of massive discontent amongst the middle-of-the-road voters. My husband and I live within our means. Congress wants to live beyond anyone’s means. It is NOT a Dem vs Rep sentiment. That is just too convenient. It NOT “screw health care reform”. That is just too convenient. This nation is hurting, and cannot afford more debt. It makes no sense to expand/invent any more huge & expensive entitlement programs while at the same time borrowing money to pay for the already huge expensive entitlement programs. If an American family is borrowing money in order to make their mortgage, should they install a pool? Modest health insurance reform. Yes. And, yes. First step of reform is to decrease costs. First step is not to broaden coverage by borrowing more $$$. “You know, boring day-to-day good governance, instead of sweeping ideological change.” Sam Stone, you got that right. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/43 "2010-01-20T16:01:28Z")
If they scrub, which I doubt, I kind of like Dean’s “Medicare for 55+” idea. To his points, it is easy to explain, it extends a popular program, and it can be passed via reconciliation. /wipes hands ---
**Author:** ![Daedelus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Daedelus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daedelus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/44 "2010-01-20T16:03:40Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Yeah…if there was ANY leadership in the party right now. The Republicans will be twisting in the wind for some time. If they can’t get their act together by November we might start to see a third party forming. Possibly, though unless some galvanizing leader emerges, there’s little hope for that. Dems and Pubs have no one leading the way for either of them, as the recent losses for the former and the inchoate Tea Party for the latter, attest to. Obama has decided to step back instead of step up, and that’s the best thing the Pubs have going for them right now. If he changes his tune, and actually starts acting like the leader that those who voted for him thought he was, there will be less momentum for a moderate third party. The months leading up to November will be very interesting, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/45 "2010-01-20T16:18:12Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > If they scrub, which I doubt, I kind of like Dean’s “Medicare for 55+” idea. To his points, it is easy to explain, it extends a popular program, and it can be passed via reconciliation. > > /wipes hands [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703436504574640711655886136.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703436504574640711655886136.html) Quote from the article: "Mayo says it lost $840 million last year treating Medicare patients, the result of the program’s low reimbursement rates. Its hospital and four clinics in Arizona—including the Glendale facility—lost $120 million. Providers like Mayo swallow some of these Medicare losses, while also shifting the cost by charging more to private patients and insurers. Of course, only governments can lose that much money and pretend they don’t have to change. “Mayo Clinic loses a substantial amount of money every year due to the reimbursement schedule under Medicare,” the institution said. “Decades of underfunding and paying for volume rather than value in Medicare have led us to this decision.” ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/46 "2010-01-20T16:23:56Z")
What you say does not discourage me from pursuing an extension of medicare. Runaway medical costs will respond to downward incentives only when more people are willing to pay less. Medicare is a way for the gvt to help force this. Conversely, I assume you would support a repeal of all Medicare? ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/47 "2010-01-20T16:33:14Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > What you say does not discourage me from pursuing an extension of medicare. Runaway medical costs will respond to downward incentives only when more people are willing to pay less. Medicare is a way for the gvt to help force this. > > Conversely, I assume you would support a repeal of all Medicare? You assume incorrectly. I recently retired from a 3 decade career in the medical field as a primary care nurse practitioner. I took care of countless tens of thousands of Medicare folk. And, it was wonderful. \*“Runaway medical costs will respond to downward incentives only when more people are willing to pay less.” \* What people are you talking about? People are always “willing to pay less” for the same goods or services. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/48 "2010-01-20T16:38:22Z")
_Talking point time_ Since Massachusetts apparently already has a (popular?) health care system similar to the proposed national bill and Brown ran on stopping it, can this be taken as support for that style of health care? As in, “We don’t want the government messing up our health care.” Politics! ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/49 "2010-01-20T16:43:01Z")
Well, that’s good to hear. I’m not trying to be a dick, just trying to understand your point in posting that WSJ article without commentary. So given that you think that Medicare can be fixed, then, what is wrong with Medicare, and how would you fix it, and how would that fix not also apply to an extension of medicare coverage? Maybe medicare needs to raise reimbursement rates, or maybe there needs to be another class of care for Medicare folks. I’m not anti that concept, the Mayo Clinic is a seriously elite organization and I would expect them to be expensive. I don’t want caddilac for all, just coverage for all. Re: willing to pay less. I mean basically that insurance companies have not been successful in lowering costs, likely because the buyer never sees the whole bill, and for whatever reason insurance co’s don’t apply the same price pressure as Medicare. If Medicare is willing to apply downward price pressure, then expanding the Medicare pool should increase that pressure. If I could start from scratch, then I think there would be a “Chevy” clinic and emergency reception outlet wherever there is a certain number of people. This first line would reduce a lot of expense, but still not eliminate the issue of $50,000 per dose drug treatments or $15,000 in tests every time someone faints. At some point someone has to stop paying for all this. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/50 "2010-01-20T16:51:03Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > the Mayo Clinic is a seriously elite organization and I would expect them to be expensive. Did you read the article in the link about the Mayo? “President Obama last year praised the Mayo Clinic as a “classic example” of how a health-care provider can offer “better outcomes” at lower cost.” And, you’re not being a dick. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/51 "2010-01-20T17:00:49Z")
I did read the article, it is all over the place opinion wise, which is why I was seeking yours. SOme points from the article as I discern them: 1. Obama thinks that the ACO model is a good idea 2. despite the ACO model, Medicare is becoming persona non grata at the Mayo clinic 3. Even though this outcome-based model kinda works, it is futile to think it can work everywhere I don’t know much about ACOs - do you think that Medicare should incentivize this kind of treatment by issuing “episodic” payments instead of procedure-based reimbursements? And perhaps that this sort of reform should be prioritized ahead of extending the Medicare rolls? I’m just asking what you think here. And trying to figure out what I think. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/52 "2010-01-20T17:08:59Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > 1. despite the ACO model, Medicare is becoming persona non grata at the Mayo clinic Only because the Mayo could no longer afford to participate. It was not intended to be any sort of shot across the bow of medicare, per se. > [@](#): > > I’m just asking what you think here. And trying to figure out what I think. I understand. I personally do not know how to “fix” healthcare. It’s above my (former) pay scale. What I do know is this. The national debt is a huge threat to our country. A far bigger threat than any healthcare “crisis”. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/53 "2010-01-20T17:20:34Z")
> [@pinkyvee](#): > > The national debt is a huge threat to our country. > A far bigger threat than any healthcare “crisis”. And, in my opinion, this is what the voters in MA were saying when they cast their ballots. First things first. Fix the economy. Don’t spend more than you can afford. Don’t vote on anything as important as healthcare without being transparent to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/54 "2010-01-20T17:31:04Z")
Mass voter here. Frankly, I think the major decider in this election was the candidates. Coakley is BOOORING, lacks personality, and practically refused to campaign. Here. [Watch the first chunk of The Daily Show from Monday.](http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-january-18-2010-david-walker) It tells you just how much of a personal flop Coakley is. The very fact that this election was close when the Democratic candidate was so weak speaks pretty strongly against this being a “referendum” and more of a “Martha Coakley is tedious”. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/55 "2010-01-20T18:04:55Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Mass voter here. Who got your vote? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/56 "2010-01-20T18:08:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What the GOP should do is what they did in 1994 - a Contract with America, where they lay out a clear, limited agenda. You mean, think of something to be for? I dunno, sounds radical. > [@](#): > > Don’t know if there is a Gingrich equivalent who can put it together - maybe Newt himself can advise the Republs on how it is done. What really worked for Newt, and has been the core of GOP strategy since, was the adoption of this memo about effective choice of words in describing the Democrats. > [@Newt Gingrich](#): > > Often we search hard for words to define our opponents. Sometimes we are hesitant to use contrast. Remember that creating a difference helps you. These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party. > > abuse of power, anti- (issue): flag, family, child, jobs, betray, bizarre, bosses, bureaucracy, cheat, coercion, “compassion” is not enough, collapse(ing), consequences, corrupt, corruption, criminal rights, crisis, cynicism, decay, deeper, destroy, destructive, devour, disgrace, endanger, excuses, failure (fail), greed, hypocrisy, ideological, impose, incompetent, insecure, insensitive, intolerant, liberal, lie, limit(s), machine, mandate(s), obsolete, pathetic, patronage, permissive attitude, pessimistic, punish (poor …), radical, red tape, self-serving, selfish, sensationalists, shallow, shame, sick, spend(ing), stagnation, status quo, steal, taxes, they/them, threaten, traitors, unionized, urgent (cy), waste, welfare Recognize any of that? And that’s the guy you want to be leading your party _now_, too, instead of Limbaugh. > [@](#): > > It would be a good idea to include some kind of limited health care reform package. Focus on catastrophic coverage and tort reform. Both are popular, and doable Sure. But then why did they choose not to discuss those items, or make any substantive proposals that could be considered in either House’s bill, and instead to spread the “death panels” idiocy instead? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/57 "2010-01-20T18:10:07Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Coakley is BOOORING, lacks personality, and practically refused to campaign. Sure didn’t seem that way in the primary. But yes, she made the mistake of thinking it was over then, just as it would have been for Kennedy. Mike Capuano has got to be having trouble controlling himself today. ---
**Author:** ![YoureBeingABinkyBoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e0b2c6/32.png) [@YoureBeingABinkyBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoureBeingABinkyBoo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/58 "2010-01-20T18:15:23Z")
I think it’s really too small a sampling to draw any big conclusions from. Only 12% of Mass voters are registered republicans, so this election seemed to really be a fight between independents and democrats. The real referendum will come in November, and there’ll be no arguing those results. Alot can happen between now and then, economically and with national security. Obama is behind the eight ball now and needs to do something to counteract the feeling of buyer’s remorse among the independents who supported him. ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/59 "2010-01-20T18:16:12Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > 1. Even though this outcome-based model kinda works, it is futile to think it can work everywhere Well, some disclosure here, you should know that my former “big boss” is George Halvorson. George is deeply involved in the process. [http://xnet.kp.org/newscenter/clinicalexcellence/2009/051109halvorsonreform.html](http://xnet.kp.org/newscenter/clinicalexcellence/2009/051109halvorsonreform.html) My former employer stresses evidence based medicine as a tool to reduce costs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652/60 "2010-01-20T18:20:33Z")
It’s all about the independents, which is the group that ushered the Dems in back in '06 and '08. The specter of Bush is fading, and after a year, I think the perception is that Obama and the Dems (in power for longer than Obama) now own the problems. Unless the economy shows signs of recovery, then we’ll probably see a lot of those seats won marginally by the Dems recently go back to the Pubs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-is-the-ma-election-a-national-statement-referendum-on-anything/525652.md?page=4)