# How much longer will we be in Iraq, Mr. President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956 "2004-12-15T12:15:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/61 "2004-12-16T14:18:23Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I don’t think for a second most anti-war folks are interested in helping the enemy. That won’t stop the insurgents, however, from using the movement for their own ends. Every Muslim killed by Coalition forces is used by Al Qaeda as a recruiting point. I’m not saying that those who support the war in Iraq are lending support to the enemy, but that is the effect of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/62 "2004-12-16T14:37:55Z")
Uh huh. So victory can only be achieved through surrender? You’re not French, are you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/63 "2004-12-16T14:46:10Z")
Inappropriately-narrow conceptual framework, Moto-san. The _ostensible_ remaining purpose of our involvement is to liberate and stabilize the country, not defeat it. The battleground is the locals’ hearts and minds. Kicking their asses won’t win them. Except for the minority Sunnis who are about to lose their control, their hearts and minds agree that they want us out. Help us out here - what do _you_ define as victory in this situation? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/64 "2004-12-16T15:15:27Z")
Kicking the asses of insurgents who terrorize the local population can indeed win hearts and minds. You do realize, don’t you, that we’re not dealing with a broad civil war? By most accounts, things are peaceful in most of Iraq’s provinces, with large scale fighting in only 3 to 4 of them. I’ve seen reports from rank-and-file Marines fighting in Fallujah that locals left bedding and food for them, and encouraged them to use their houses while they fought the insurgents. They certainly want us out, and I can’t blame them for that. That doesn’t mean for a second they want that bunch of thugs to take over. As long as our forces remain the lesser of two evils, I think we’ll be in okay shape. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/65 "2004-12-16T15:43:17Z")
> [@Wrath](#): > > Consider the naiton-building efforts of Germany, Turkey, et al. When I say we’re generous, I mean in all things. We didn’t do that (at least primarily) out of generosity. We did it because it was in our best interests to do so. (Cold War and all that.) I am not saying it was not a good thing…It was a very good thing and one of the best and far-sighted foreign policy decisions the U.S. made in the last century. But, I think it is naive to attribute it primarily to generous motives. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > As long as our forces remain the lesser of two evils, I think we’ll be in okay shape. Can you let me know when we’re in bad shape? Just so I can keep up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/66 "2004-12-16T15:44:42Z")
It is really good to have someone here with such insight into the situation, and such a firm grasp on the opinions of the average Iraqi. The rest of us are not so blessed, we have to rely on the information spoon fed to us by an administration whose record on clear candor is…uninspiring. But **Moto** has the facts, the unvarnished truth! I trust no one will be so churlish as to question his sources or cast aspersions on his expertise. “By most accounts…I’ve seen reports…” Solid stuff. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956/67 "2004-12-16T16:14:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Kicking the asses of insurgents who terrorize the local population can indeed win hearts and minds. What leads you to conclude that the insurgency lacks broad popular support? > [@](#): > > You do realize, don’t you, that we’re not dealing with a broad civil war? By most accounts, things are peaceful in most of Iraq’s provinces, with large scale fighting in only 3 to 4 of them. At this time, that’s true. After scarcely 2 years of our fighting for their liberation and stabilization and democratization, the civil war is not yet all that broad. Makes your chest swell with pride, doesn’t it? What happens when we leave and are no longer the highest-priority enemy? > [@](#): > > I’ve seen reports from rank-and-file Marines fighting in Fallujah that locals left bedding and food for them, and encouraged them to use their houses while they fought the insurgents. And you’ve doubtless seen many more reports about all the fighting the Marines had to do just to take some sort of control of the piles of rubble. Which reports would one think would give the most-representative picture of the situation? > [@](#): > > They certainly want us out, and I can’t blame them for that. That doesn’t mean for a second they want that bunch of thugs to take over. As long as our forces remain the lesser of two evils, I think we’ll be in okay shape. What leads you to conclude that, to the bulk of any of the various groups there, we are the lesser evil? And how do you feel about being seen as evil at all? Shouldn’t that affect our strategy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-longer-will-we-be-in-iraq-mr-president/279956.md?page=3)