# How much more expensive to raise animals humanely? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 17, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224 "2021-12-17T16:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/41 "2021-12-19T18:10:15Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > And they don’t recognize that the kinds of agriculture they support, because they requires more land, cause, at the end of chain of consequences, deforestation – resulting in greater externalities than for the cheap food the poor eat. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is a legitimate argument against organic food production. The costs of conventional food production should be considered to include considerable environmental damage done to lands not included as part of the farms; as those farming techniques rely on the production of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides which require a great deal of use of fossil fuels, as well as on large-scale monocropping which destroys habitat for large numbers of species which can survive on diversified farms. The impact of raising livestock in CAFOs (concentrated animal feeding operations) instead of on pasture can’t fairly be compared by considering the increased amount of land needed for pasture but ignoring the costs of moving all the feed needed to the CAFOs, moving all the manure produced away often with the result of significantly polluting land and/or water systems elsewhere, producing the feed in monocropped systems fertilized with synthetic nitrogen at the cost of significant emission of greenhouse gases; etc. The greatest total nutritional yield per acre can be produced by intercropping systems which mix multiple crops within the same field, and which grow most or all of their own nitrogen fertilizer in the process as well as recycling or producing much of their other needed inputs. These systems require a lot more farmers, not a lot more land. In most farmable areas, they work best with some livestock mixed in. Much modern “organic” farming in the USA isn’t currently done in that fashion, of course. But such systems need to be organic, or close to it, because the mixture of crops of different species and harvested at different times makes it impossible to use most non-organic inputs, and unnecessary to use some of the others. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/42 "2021-12-19T21:29:07Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > People who eat beef should pay the actual cost of producing that beef. Even if it makes beef a luxury. For most of history that what beef was, a luxury. You don’t need to eat beef to live. > > I think it is utterly hilarious to see people who consider themselves to be good liberals being so blind to how how they are talking looks. “We don’t want to pay subsidies to help the poor! If they can’t afford meat, let them eat beans! They’ll be better off!” Might as well be fitted for the MAGA hat, because that is [thinking exactly like a Conservative Republican](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/02/steak-and-lobster-food-stamp-myth-lives-on.html). Or [Ebenezer Scrooge](https://www.thecircumlocutionoffice.com/rather-die-decrease-surplus-population/). > > Care to list other ways you think the poors are better off having their lives made even harder and lower quality? Maybe milk and eggs are too good for them? I have been poor. In fact, there are probably a good dozen threads on the Straight Dope about my trip through poverty. I am well aware of what it is to be on food stamps, or going to food pantries. It’s not a matter of being mean to the poor (or anyone else), it’s about the true cost of the food we eat. If that means increasing the amount of food stamps available to the poor so they can afford proper food I’m all for that, let’s do it. Outsourcing a chunk of the true cost of producing food is wrecking the environment and the planet. The cost of disposing of animal waste should be part of the cost of a hamburger, as just one example. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/43 "2021-12-19T21:38:46Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Is it true that : malnutrition in poor American populations is largely due to access to food stores? If that’s the case, then, subsidizing meat is not going to solve that - neither will depositing money in their bank accounts. It’s a little bit more complicated than that. However, keeping things to just market-distortion - heavy subsidies for some crops like corn result in certain types of food with many calories in proportion to things like vitamins, minerals, and fiber and a long shelf life winding up cheaper than things like fresh fruits and vegetables, which also have shorter shelf lives. This makes it easier for people - not just the poor but ALL people - to choose that lower quality food which can result in malnutrition even when a person is getting adequate (or more than adequate) calories. Then there’s the issue of food deserts that, again, have lots of food with empty carbs and fats and inadequate other nutritional items. Outright starvation is extremely rare in the US, usually associated with psychiatric disorders at this point, but poor nutrition is very much an issue. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/44 "2021-12-19T22:01:13Z")
I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/45 "2021-12-19T22:32:45Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > The fellow pointed out that heritage pigs were as smart as dogs, while the ones that produce twice the meat in almost half the time today, are so stupid, they have to be restrained in cages so the mother does not roll over and crush the piglets. I guess hyperbole is necessary to sell the story. Sows overlying and suffocating some of their own litter occurs whether free range or housed. Indeed overlaying is more prevalent with free range because there aren’t the farrowing cages that reduce the incidence. And cannibalism, as free range sows, being predatory omnivores, will hunt down other litters. A fair bit of the profitability of raising housed pigs comes by substantially reducing juvenile mortality. It ain’t Watership Down out there in the fields. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/46 "2021-12-20T23:20:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The cost of disposing of animal waste should be part of the cost of a hamburger Animal waste isn’t disposed of in a landfill; it’s spread on adjacent farmland as fertilizer, just like what has been done on little mom & pop “organic” farms for generations before the term was invented. My grandparents operated such a farm; a farm kid’s first paying job was often shoveling shit out of the barns and pens of neighboring farms - that practice didn’t start in modern feedlots. There seems to be a bunch of myths that modern intensive farming created all these evil practices like fertilizer, penning animals, and supplemental feed, which have always been around. Modern farming just maximizes the efficiency of the older systems, along with incorporating new technology and research. Whether that is god or bad is debatable, but it’s an evolution of traditional farming techniques, not an alien system invented a few decades ago by engineers and businessmen. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/47 "2021-12-21T00:10:16Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > Animal waste isn’t disposed of in a landfill; it’s spread on adjacent farmland as fertilizer, just like what has been done on little mom & pop “organic” farms for generations before the term was invented. My grandparents operated such a farm Yup. That’s what happens on farms like that. And if the amount of land is suitable to the number of livestock, it works just fine; just as, if the pasture isn’t overloaded with too many head per acre, the manure improves the pasture instead of damaging it and/or running off and polluting area waters. That’s not what happens with CAFO’s. The fields on which the feed for CAFO livestock are grown are likely to be nowhere near the livestock, and to be fertilized not with manure (heavy and bulky to ship and otherwise to handle) but with synthetic fertilizers. Any “adjacent farmland” is likely to be massively insufficient for the purpose, precisely because there are a whole lot of livestock concentrated in a small area. Fertilizer is not a case of ‘more is better’; it’s a case of ‘the right amount is good, too much is a pollutant.’ In the USA, at least, there are currently Federal regulations for manure disposal from CAFOs for exactly that reason. How well they’re working may in some cases be another matter; but, in any case, it certainly isn’t a matter of just dumping the manure on adjacent fields. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/48 "2021-12-21T00:57:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Not really. > > [How Farm Subsidies Encourage the Big to Get Bigger - National Sustainable Agriculture Coalition](https://sustainableagriculture.net/blog/farm-subsidies-encourage-big-get-bigger/) > > A more recent cite: > > [Research Brief Does Farm Size Matter - Regulation and Applied Economic Analysis | Montana State University](https://www.montana.edu/regecon/publications/doesfarmsizematter/index.html) > > > Results indicate that farms within the top decile for crop sales receive over two-thirds of the total payments from these programs. Indeed, the last 50 years of research has shown that agricultural safety net program benefits are concentrated among the largest, wealthiest farms. I didn’t say subsidies stopped consolidation of farms. I said it was intended to support small farmers, which would of course slow progress to industrial farms. Consolidation is an inevitable progression, since economies of scale and ability to weather bad years work better for large farms. But like any legislation written by lobbyists, it ends up catering to those big enough to afford lobbyists. > [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Dude. Eating less meat is _healthier._ To say that someone would have a harder life of lower quality is irrational. Some might even say ignorant. No. Humans evolved to eat meat along with other foods. What is unhealthy is not eating meat, it’s eating too much - meat, sugar, starch, vegetables masquerading as meat or milk, sugar water, whatever. …and it has nothing to do with quality of life. The connection is the other way around - people who have had little money and now have more money will want to eat more meat, along with other quality of life benefits of having the bottom of Maslow’s hierarchy attended to. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/49 "2021-12-21T01:17:29Z")
I did say “Less meat” not “no meat.” People in the US like to have it 3 times a day. Once a day is enough. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/50 "2021-12-21T02:24:15Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > I didn’t say subsidies stopped consolidation of farms. I said it was intended to support small farmers, which would of course slow progress to industrial farms. Which is why I gave cites showing that they’re not supporting small farmers, and are in fact increasing consolidation into larger farms. The original intention may indeed have been different. But that’s not what the practice is doing, or has been doing for a long time now. > [@md-2000](#): > > Consolidation is an inevitable progression, since economies of scale and ability to weather bad years work better for large farms. Ability to weather bad years works better for highly diversified farms, as difficulties are unlikely to affect all crops/livestock equally. The massive costs involved in the equipment necessary for modern large farms also cause problems on their own, especially when the money to cover them has been borrowed. And economies of scale work up to a certain point – there’s a most efficient size for anything; beyond that size efficiency tends to go down. The most efficient size for a farm is going to depend a great deal on the type of operation; and is going to depend on the definition of “efficiency” that’s being used. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/51 "2021-12-21T02:48:40Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That’s not what happens with CAFO’s. The fields on which the feed for CAFO livestock are grown are likely to be nowhere near the livestock, and to be fertilized not with manure (heavy and bulky to ship and otherwise to handle) but with synthetic fertilizers. I know I’m in a different country, but I find it hard to believe that the US doesn’t do basically the same thing we do in Canada. We have CAFOs too, locally referred to as feedlots. My daily commute used to have me drive right by one of them, plus through the farmland surrounding them. I saw the yearly cycle of moving animals in, feeding, cleaning out the pens, stockpiling the manure, and spreading it out in the spring with my own eyes again and again. Of course you’re not going to ship manure very far; that’s why it’s spread locally. You can actually tell exactly how locally; the transport trucks leave mud on the highway going from the source to the destination - they don’t go very far. And yes plenty of the feed for them is also grown fairly close. Just because a practice is modern doesn’t mean the basic realities of costs and profits cease to exist. It’s often cheaper to get your grain from the surrounding grain fields (that you likely own) than to import. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Any “adjacent farmland” is likely to be massively insufficient for the purpose, precisely because there are a whole lot of livestock concentrated in a small area. No, this is just ignorance. Take a look at this image of the feedlot I used to drive by every day (bottom left corner) here. Notice the difference in area between that brown rectangle and all the grey and green. All those circles and squares are either cultivated fields or pasture. And this is in a location considered to have dense feedlot coverage. I wouldn’t call that ratio “massively insufficient” to spread manure on. They still use artificial fertilizers because the manure isn’t enough. Remember that these are multi-million dollar businesses with investors; why would you choose to locate in an area where you force yourself to make a commodity (manure) into a liability (because you can’t get rid of it)? Our regulations specify how close these operations can be too each other to avoid what you claim to be common problem in your country. I have a feeling you’ve got similar regulations if you look a little closer. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Fertilizer is not a case of ‘more is better’; it’s a case of ‘the right amount is good, too much is a pollutant.’ Is their any reason to think that modern famers just became stupid all of a sudden and can no longer comprehend the consequences of applying too much fertilizer which burns their plants and wastes money? Anther example of the stereotype of modern people being dumb and previous generations being smart before all this scary science and technology came along. The problem with that stereotype is: who do you think taught these modern famers the basics decades ago? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/52 "2021-12-21T04:34:03Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > I know I’m in a different country, but I find it hard to believe that the US doesn’t do basically the same thing we do in Canada. We have CAFOs too, locally referred to as feedlots. There are feedlots, and there are giant factories full of animals. We have a lot of the latter. And pollution from the waste from the giant factory types is a serious problem, leading to algae blooms in the Mississippi basin, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/53 "2021-12-21T10:16:50Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > Is their any reason to think that modern famers just became stupid all of a sudden and can no longer comprehend the consequences of applying too much fertilizer which burns their plants and wastes money? I don’t think farmers are dumb, but corporations sure can be. And a lot of what passes for “farms” these days in America are actually corporations. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/54 "2021-12-21T12:41:30Z")
There is a “dead zone” larger than the state of Delaware in the gulf of Mexico, from excess nutrients from runoff from hog factories: > **[Agricultural runoff puts Iowa's Raccoon River on list of 10 most endangered...](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/agriculture/2021/04/13/raccoon-river-most-endangered-list-american-rivers-iowa-livestock-farm-runoff/7130565002/)** > > American Rivers leader: 'We’re sounding the alarm because pollution in the Raccoon River is putting drinking water supplies and public health at risk.' ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/55 "2021-12-21T13:21:59Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > You can adopt a mixed breed dog from the SPCA, and without realizing it bring home the product of two littermates. And you can buy a purebred dog from a show breeder where there is a long pedigree, that can be checked on the web, showing no repeats until you go back many generations In many cases, the purebred dog will have been ‘designed’ to fit some weird idea of perfection: pugs, french bulldogs and other similar types of ‘designer’ dogs have short, flat faces with narrow nostrils and abnormal windpipes., spaniels that all trace back to a pair with genetic defects suffer from heart problems, giant dogs such as Mastiffs, Saint Bernards, and Great Danes suffer from orthopaedic problems like hip dysplasia. That’s a small sample from my own memory, read this for a detailed list: > **[Dogs That Changed The World ~ Selective Breeding Problems | Nature | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/dogs-that-changed-the-world-selective-breeding-problems/1281/)** > > In the same way that inbreeding among human populations can increase the frequency of normally rare genes that cause diseases, the selective breeding that ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/56 "2021-12-21T14:44:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There is a “dead zone” larger than the state of Delaware in the gulf of Mexico, from excess nutrients from runoff from hog factories: I’m not an expert, but I thought excessive fertilizer - on crops AND lawns - contributed to the deadzone. So that goes to the industrial raising of monoculture crops - like corn, and then figuring out what to DO with all that corn - from feeding it to cows/pigs/and fish, or wasting water to make ethanol. In the process, everyone makes $ except the guy driving the tractor. Also not an expert about waste ponds, but I’ve heard about the ones around massive hog farms breaching and polluting rivers - s described in the attached article. And it sure seemed to me that those involve A LOT of shit to spread on nearby land. No, farmers have not “gotten stupid.” To the contrary, large large corporations have “gotten smart.” They have lobbied and learned to take advantage of what they can get away with to maximize their profits while imposing their external costs on folk other than themselves. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/57 "2021-12-21T15:45:14Z")
I’ve read several articles, including the one i linked, that claim high intensity hog farming is a significant contributor to the dead zone. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/58 "2021-12-21T17:10:50Z")
I have no doubt. I’ve also often read that in terms of fertilizers, more goes on to lawns, than crops. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/59 "2021-12-21T17:22:57Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Any “adjacent farmland” is likely to be massively insufficient for the purpose, precisely because there are a whole lot of livestock concentrated in a small area. > > No, this is just ignorance. Take a look at this image of the feedlot I used to drive by every day (bottom left corner) here. Notice the difference in area between that brown rectangle and all the grey and green. All those circles and squares are either cultivated fields or pasture. And this is in a location considered to have dense feedlot coverage. I wouldn’t call that ratio “massively insufficient” to spread manure on. They still use artificial fertilizers because the manure isn’t enough. > > Remember that these are multi-million dollar businesses with investors; why would you choose to locate in an area where you force yourself to make a commodity (manure) into a liability (because you can’t get rid of it)? > > Our regulations specify how close these operations can be too each other to avoid what you claim to be common problem in your country. I have a feeling you’ve got similar regulations if you look a little closer. > **[From hogs to HABs: impacts of industrial farming in the US on nitrogen and...](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10533-020-00691-6)** > > Nutrient pollution and greenhouse gas emissions related to crop agriculture and confined animal feeding operations (CAFOs) in the US have changed substantially in recent years, in amounts and forms. This review is intended to provide a broad view of... [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479720306708](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479720306708) > **[Report: Majority of Poultry Farms in Md. Failed Inspections But Faced Few...](https://www.marylandmatters.org/2021/10/28/report-majority-of-poultry-farms-in-md-failed-inspections-but-faced-few-penalties/)** > > Eighty-four percent of poultry farms in Maryland failed their first state inspection over the last several years, most due to inadequate waste management and... > **[U.S.-Canada board: The Great Lakes have a manure problem](https://publicintegrity.org/environment/growing-food-sowing-trouble/u-s-canada-board-the-great-lakes-have-a-manure-problem/)** > > The Center for Public Integrity is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates betrayals of public trust. Sign up to receive our stories. An advisory panel for a U.S.-Canada commission is calling for government agencies in the Great Lakes region... > **[Laws needed to protect Great Lakes from farm runoff, joint commission reports...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/runoff-lake-erie-report-1.3942469)** > > A report compiled by American and Canadian experts concludes voluntary measures to protect the Great Lakes from farm manure haven't done enough and suggests governments should use laws to protect the water from runoff. – I could go on; about both countries. I do not believe that the ignorance in this case is mine. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224/60 "2021-12-21T21:45:00Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > In many cases, the purebred dog will have been ‘designed’ to fit some weird idea of perfection: pugs, french bulldogs and other similar types of ‘designer’ dogs have short, flat faces with narrow nostrils and abnormal windpipes., spaniels that all trace back to a pair with genetic defects suffer from heart problems, giant dogs such as Mastiffs, Saint Bernards, and Great Danes suffer from orthopaedic problems like hip dysplasia. The topics in this thread all depend on statistics that we mostly don’t have. Also, the targets of critics and defenders are moving. For example, it looks like [integrated pest management](https://www.grandviewresearch.com/press-release/global-integrated-pest-management-ipm-market) is at a takeoff point, so high-efficiency agriculture is about to greatly reduce pesticide use. There probably are changes on the Whole Foods side of the fence as well. As for purebred dogs, some breeds are making progress on health and others, not so much. The hobby breeder purebred dog world is in near-collapse due to some combination of bad health publicity and the feel-good magic of the word rescue. When we visited breeders last year, looking for our current dog, the breeders were uniformly middle aged or older. The number of dogs registered with the American Kennel Club is going down so fast that they have declined to release statistics (beyond breed rankings) since 2009. If it is true that on average, taking the good with the bad, mixed breeds are heathier, vets should be suffering from a fall-off in business. I doubt it, but don’t actually know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-more-expensive-to-raise-animals-humanely/956224.md?page=4)