# How much of a tune can you use in another song without concern about copyright? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 18, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597 "2009-09-18T15:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/1 "2009-09-18T15:28:50Z")
Is it a certain number of notes or bars? I’m thinking of making a recording of all possible combinations, thus owning all future music. I just want to know how many CDs to issue it on. ---
**Author:** ![Never\_Say\_Dice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@Never\_Say\_Dice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_Say_Dice)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/2 "2009-09-18T23:34:52Z")
If they count flats and sharps and half notes and rests, then even a few notes’ worth of combinations would fill a CD. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/3 "2009-09-19T17:53:52Z")
Well you can use any song anytme you like, you just have to pay for it. In the USA (though not all countries), you don’t need permission to record anyone else’s song. But you do have to pay for it. What the OP is talking about is “fair use.” Fair use is a hard term to define, because it is defined AFTER the fact. For instance, if I use part of a song and the person who owns it sues, a judge then decides if my use of the song was fair use or not. Judge Amy may decide in my favour while Judge Zoe may decide in the song owner’s favour. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/4 "2009-09-19T17:59:13Z")
A somewhat common joke in television is that someone will sing a few seconds of a song and then stop, saying that if they sang any more they’d have to pay for it. I’ve always wondered if there’s any truth to it. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/5 "2009-09-19T20:39:04Z")
The answer is: enough so that the songwriter would want to sue. There is no set answer, and whether you can do it or not also depends on the attitude of the copyright holder\*. If it’s recognizable as another song, then you could be sued for using it. The more recognizable, the harder it will be to defend again. \*Remember, the Kinks thought about suing the Doors over “Hello I Love You,” since it’s so similar to “All the Day and All of the Night,” but Ray Davies ultimately decided not to. But he could have made a pretty strong case. Remember, too, that the Rolling Stones actually did sue someone who sampled Jagger’s shout at the beginning of “Sympathy for the Devil.” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/6 "2009-09-19T20:52:16Z")
If anyone who hasn’t joined yet still wants to play, you’re free to. We’re dropping 1 week of scores, meaning that you can miss week 1 and still compete. Last week’s winners: Pick em: 1. RetroVertigo 16 2. garygnu, Fear the Turtle, Cyberhwk’s Sage Selections 14 Spread: 1. Frosted Spread 14 2. JAMmer’s Haruspicy Experiment 12 3. Shibb’s Unskilled Hacks, garygnu, Fear the Turtle 11 Confidence: 1. Oakminster 134 2. garygnu 128 3. Fear the Turtle 124 Survival strikes (not eliminated, since you need 2 strikes to be eliminated): Court Jesters, Hal’s surviving ferrets Players who don’t have their picks in yet: Omni’s Crystal Balls Shibb’s Unskilled Hacks Kid\_A Court Jesters garygnu asterion ICU812 Nine Inch Neils (RNATB) ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/7 "2009-09-19T21:25:51Z")
😕 Did you post in the wrong thread or something? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/8 "2009-09-19T21:34:25Z")
How the hell. I didn’t even have this thread open. Sorry, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/9 "2009-09-19T21:53:45Z")
I deleted three posts from this thread. The poster had intended the first post for another thread. The next two posts were colloquy about whether the post belonged here or not. \*\* Gfactor\*\* General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/10 "2009-09-21T16:52:38Z")
The Beach Boys had to give Chuck Berry a writing credit for Surfin’ USA, as the guitar lick is pretty much a total steal from Sweet Little Sixteen. That’s what you call over the line. The Rolling Stones decided to avoid the whole mess and give co-writing credit immediately for Anybody Seen My Baby to K.D. Lang and Ben Mink because of the similarity to their Constant Craving. ---
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/11 "2009-09-22T14:54:05Z")
I’m thinking of making a recording of all possible combinations, thus owning all future music. I just want to know how many CDs to issue it on. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/12 "2009-09-22T15:20:33Z")
And you do not like the answer that: a) It depends on the notes and if they result in a “I can name that tune in …” sensation to a particular judge that day. and b) That given that it is notes, rests, duration, intonation, etc. (not just notes) that the it would be a very huge number that you’d need a a major math wonk to calculate, if it is even less than an infinite set, given that rests can be exquisitely small to infinitely large, in theory. Correct? Or are you just trying to make some smart ass cute commentary about intellectual property law? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/13 "2009-09-22T15:23:22Z")
> [@the\_first\_supraliminal](#): > > I’m thinking of making a recording of all possible combinations, thus owning all future music. I just want to know how many CDs to issue it on. For something to be copyright, it doesn’t need to be published. (You might have more difficulty proving intent to copy, however, if it’s unpublished). So just have your computer print out all the possible tunes, and submit a copy to the Copyright Office for registration. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8797f3/32.png) [@Brainiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/14 "2009-09-22T16:59:45Z")
Should all fit in one CD. I think a CD can hold over a million notes. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/15 "2009-09-22T18:01:24Z")
> [@Brainiac](#): > > Should all fit in one CD. I think a CD can hold over a million notes. Please share your calculation that a million notes would cover it. Assume a piano keyboard with its 88 notes. And a rest would simply just count as another note. Start off just not even considering dynamics as having any identifying value. And make it up that an arbitrary unique dozen note combination in a published work would be considered “protected” (which is already established as not the way it would work). 88 to the 12th power (88^12). 2.156712 x 10^23. Of course some overlapping frames may repeat unique combinations. But then each note can be a sixteenth to what? Cap it at a double whole note? So it is then 11264^12. Or 4.172 x 10^48. NOW consider dynamics … I think you may need to order a few more CDs … ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/16 "2009-09-22T18:23:50Z")
I don’t know if this was intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but Stephen Schwartz was talking about his musical _Wicked_, and he said: "The “Unlimited” melody incorporates the first seven notes of the song “Over the Rainbow.” Schwartz included it as an inside joke as, “according to copyright law, when you get to the eighth note, then people can come and say, ‘Oh you stole our tune.’ And of course obviously it’s also disguised in that it’s completely different rhythmically. And it’s also harmonized completely differently… It’s over a different chord and so on, but still it’s the first seven notes of ‘Somewhere Over the Rainbow’”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/17 "2009-09-22T18:46:12Z")
Oh dang, forgot about chords! 2 note and three note chords possible in each spot too! BTW, I just found [this discussion](http://ask.metafilter.com/15077/What-is-the-minimum-number-of-notes-in-a-songmelody-for-it-to-by-copyrighted) that asks the same question, if you want some other angles. And the further joke is that the first 7 notes of “Somewhere Over The Rainbow” are those seven syllables in title itself - the most identifiable bit of the song, if it was identifiable in the song. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-much-of-a-tune-can-you-use-in-another-song-without-concern-about-copyright/510597/18 "2009-09-22T18:57:37Z")
> [@the\_first\_supraliminal](#): > > I’m thinking of making a recording of all possible combinations, thus owning all future music. I just want to know how many CDs to issue it on. Conversely, your recording would also infringe upon all existing copyrighted music. It would contain every phrase, lick, and melody line ever used before.